• The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...

    Get involved!

Manager Ange Postecoglou

Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports

Was sacking Ange a good idea?

  • Yes, I think it was a good idea.

    Votes: 73 64.6%

  • No, I think it was a bad idea.

    Votes: 40 35.4%
  • Total voters
    113
FightingIllini said:
A perfectly legitimate argument.


And the legitimate argument gets badly harmed by the refusal to just deal with reality here.

Romero, Van De Ven, Solanke, Johnson, Udogie and Porro started all of the final 5 EL games, the QF, SF and Final. The whole back line and the two primary goalscorers, that was his core group that was fit during that period.

In the seven league games between Southampton on 6 April (which we won despite fielding a weakened team in preparation for the first leg with Frankfurt) and the final day against Brighton (which was after the final):

Van de Ven played 45 minutes total
Romero played two 90's, one other half, and was unused 4 times
Porro was an unused substitute 4 times
Udogie was an unused substitute 6 times
Solanke was an unused substitute twice, and came off the bench twice more
Johnson was an unused substitute twice, and came off the bench twice more

You just look stupid pretending this didn't happen, there's no other way to say it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

How is resting players tanking something? He had a squad. Many of the teams we played were still decent. We certainly weren’t throwing out youth teams to get destroyed.

We lost games where we didn’t rotate. We lost games where we did rotate. We lost games when we had no EL matches. Constantly. The shit run of form came long before the Europa league knockouts and concluded after we’d won the fucking thing.

Everyone rests players for Europe, it doesn’t mean they sacked it off and weren’t trying in the league. It’s a shit excuse. It’s a pathetic excuse. It’s the last refuge of the Angelina’s.
 
Deuterz said:
How is resting players tanking something?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean I don't care to get in an argument of defining various verbs about it, but he played weakened teams in the league to rest his best XI for Europe.

And he did this with the luxury of a league position that, while utterly pathetic, was in literally zero risk of relegation.

As of the first leg of the Frankfurt QF we were 17 points clear of the drop with 7 games to go, and 11 adrift of European qualification by any other means than winning the EL.

Plus of course at that point he was going to be sacked literally within hours of our exit from Europe, which he would have royally deserved for being in 14th with 37 points from 31 games.

It ain't fuckin' rocket science to see that the Europa League was the only thing that mattered to Ange at that point.

And given that he's gone and not coming back (literally no one on this board is advocating to rehire him), I don't see how any reasonable person can't just be magnanimous about us having gotten the absolute best thing Ange would have ever been capable of giving us. We got his very best, and now both parties can move on with their lives.
 
FightingIllini said:
But it ain't fuckin' rocket science to see that the Europa League was the only thing that mattered in that season from that point and that Ange treated it as such.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Except it wasn’t, because he got sacked for being so drastically bad in the league. Had he finished top half he probably keeps his job.

Focusing on the EL and sacking off the league are two different things. Resting players for the EL and fucking off the league are totally different, too. The former is something every club does, the latter is unprecedented.

It didn’t happen. Our form was biblically bad prior to the EL knockouts and continued throughout. We were just bad. We’d been that bad since the end of the last season where we lost almost every game to see out the season. When we had one game a week.
 
Deuterz said:
Except it wasn’t, because he got sacked for being so drastically bad in the league. Had he finished top half he probably keeps his job.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I very strenuously doubt that's true. But even if it was, would you have wanted him to do that?

Deuterz said:
Our form was biblically bad prior to the EL knockouts and continued throughout.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Prior to the knockouts we had 33 points from 26 league games, injury catastrophe and all.

We've now got 34 from the following 40.
 
FightingIllini said:
And given that he's gone and not coming back (literally no one on this board is advocating to rehire him)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

If Tudor can't get 3 points from Palace I'd snap your hand off at the prospect of getting Ange back in for the rest of the season.

Obviously he would never take it (and I wouldn't want him to stay for various reasons) but if there's one bloke who can make this squad believe enough to get the wins we need to avoid relegation - I can't see a better option out there.

Hopefully this is a moot point and Tudor gets the job done on Thursday.


Also: because I'm a massive pedant: there are currently 33 people on this board advocating for him to be rehired. A massive 7% :D
 
Last edited:
FightingIllini said:
I very strenuously doubt that's true. But even if it was, would you have wanted him to do that?


Prior to the knockouts we had 33 points from 26 league games, injury catastrophe and all.

We've now got 34 from the following 40.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

33 from 27.

but MW 28 (draw with Bournemouth) was pretty much full strength, with VdV and Son coming on
Same in MW 29 (lost 2-0 to Fulham)
Full strength in the 1-0 loss to Chelsea in MW30

By then it was 34 from 30.

the 3-1 with at Southampton in MW31 was pretty much full-strength too
The 4-2 loss at wolves was a little bit weaker in defence, but rest of the line up was pretty much what we see as full strength
In the 2-1 loss to forest in MW33 we conceded two within 16 mins with Romero and VdV starting the game

The question really is when this whole "didn't concentrate on the league" becomes a case of stable door, horse, bolted. Because we were fucking awful before we got to the point where we lost 5-1 to Liverpool in the 34th game not starting Romero and VdV, the EL final was before the last game, so really we're talking 3 games (MW 35, 36, and 37) which isn't exactly a manifest of games
 
FightingIllini said:
Okay, well let me play the reasonable moderate then and say that's insane.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

But to be serious for a second - why would it be "insane"? So many of the players are on the record as saying he made them feel like they could achieve anything. Mickey, Romero - Madders has just said it too.

That's what we need isn't it? Someone to get a "bounce"?

Did you see any "bounce" at Fulham?

Who else is there out there if Tudor can't get it done? Seriously?
 
FightingIllini said:
The last time Ange played a full strength team in the league was against Chelsea on April 3rd.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

And that was only "because it was Chelsea". Almost worked too. 1-0 loss.

When the back 5 played together in the EL we didn't lose a game. Think we only drew 1.

CJJ CJJ won't talk about that stat though.
 
FightingIllini said:
The last time Ange played a full strength team in the league was against Chelsea on April 3rd.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think that depends on your definition of "full strength".

The 2-1 loss to Wolves (MW 33) had pretty much all the players that people would expect to play and not conceded two goals within 20 mins to Wolves.

Vicario, Porro, Romero, Van de Ven, and Spence at LB in his full 'revival' era, with Bentancur, Sarr, and Kulusevski in front of them, RIchi, Tel and Odobert starting with Solanke and Johnson coming on, Maddison and Bissouma unused subs

Hard to see how that is justifiably not 'full strength', because the game was over by the time seats were still getting warm. Not having Son doesn't justify losing to a team that was in 17th
 
CJJ said:
I think that depends on your definition of "full strength".

The 2-1 loss to Wolves (MW 33) had pretty much all the players that people would expect to play and not conceded two goals within 20 mins to Wolves.

Vicario, Porro, Romero, Van de Ven, and Spence at LB in his full 'revival' era, with Bentancur, Sarr, and Kulusevski in front of them, RIchi, Tel and Odobert starting with Solanke and Johnson coming on, Maddison and Bissouma unused subs

Hard to see how that is justifiably not 'full strength', because the game was over by the time seats were still getting warm. Not having Son doesn't justify losing to a team that was in 17th
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You mean Forest, not Wolves. Romero and Van de Ven only played a half, Solanke and Johnson didn't start, and what are we haggling about one game for anyway?

Again, no one is arguing the "full strength" version of this side that was playing in the Europa league was demonstrating some imperious quality that we could flip a switch to redeploy in the league. This was a lost team in all-around dreadful form just trying to scratch and claw its way to the only redemption available to them.

In retrospect, in binning off Ange we retained the hopelessly lost team, but lost the scratching and clawing.

He'd never have made it through this season, probably gone well before Frank was. But the Geiger counter reading in the dressing room would be a little bit lower, I feel confident of that.
 
FightingIllini said:
You mean Forest, not Wolves. Romero and Van de Ven only played a half, Solanke and Johnson didn't start, and what are we haggling about one game for anyway?

Again, no one is arguing the "full strength" version of this side that was playing in the Europa league was demonstrating some imperious quality that we could flip a switch to redeploy in the league. This was a lost team in all-around dreadful form just trying to scratch and claw its way to the only redemption available to them.

In retrospect, in binning off Ange we retained the hopelessly lost team, but lost the scratching and clawing.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes, Forest. Wolves was worse.

Romero and Van de Ven played the half we were shit and conceded in, and we technically won 1-0 in the half they didn't, so it doesn't really help the argument that we only lost because we didn't have them.

I don't think there was any 'scratching and clawing' on offer tbh. We were just as shit under Postecoglou as we are now - the only difference is that there's 5 or 6 awful teams this season, instead of 3 absolutely terrible ones camping out the relegation places, and 3 or 4 awful ones immune to relegation.

People are talking as if bringing back Postecoglou will suddenly make West Ham, Wolves, and Burnley not gain any more points. The bottom 3 finished the season last season on 25, 22, and 12 pts. Right now they are on 25, 19, and 16 - meaning that if this was last season (just us, on 29 pts from 28), we'd be immune to relegation already. The difference between the 2 season is really nothing to do with us as a team, and the threat of relegation is only separated by the fortunes of the bottom 3
 
I've been on the internet a long time and even by those lowly standards I'm not sure I've ever seen a topic on which a greater percentage of the discourse was people talking past each other than this.

I'll just go watch the Bilbao highlights on Youtube for the ten zillionth time instead. I still have no idea if Johnson got a touch.
 
CJJ said:
:pocheyes:
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Where on earth did I claim that:

CJJ said:
People are talking as if bringing back Postecoglou will suddenly make West Ham, Wolves, and Burnley not gain any more points.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It's precisely because I think that all WILL gain more points and we don't look like getting any that I'm getting so desperate that I'd be happy to get in a manager who we know for a fact that these players will actually "try" for.

It's insane how you keep talking around this subject like we aren't in genuine danger of going down. No win in 11 games. Worst form line in the entire league.

And you're still here wasting everyone's time with straw man arguments about Postecoglou?

Why are you like this?
 
Percy Clay said:
Fuck off with that bollocks. It was never remotely a possibility last year. At this stage last season we were in 13th place, 17 points clear of the relegation zone, had a +14 goal difference. The gap never went below 16 points until week 37.

There was plenty to complain about with Postecoglou's handling of the thin squad in the latter part of last season, but 'almost got us relegated' is bullshit.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ok...let me rephrase...took us down to 17th...you can't argue with facts perce.....
You're just splitting hairs...childish really..
I think I'll ignore for a while...
 
Phomesy said:
You're only this angry because you know you're wrong. And have been wrong. And it's allturned to shit.

We're all in the same boat mate. Focus your anger where it should be.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Wrong about what exactly?

I was proven right beyond doubt when he went to his next club, peddled his brand of bullshit, and saw his team go winless in every single match they played until he was sacked in humiliating fashion.

He is a fraudulent charlatan who is incredibly easy to counter and once his motivational aura wore off, he was exposed. Many of our current problem have roots in the Ange era, which is obvious for those living in reality.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top