post44409.html?hilit=Yid#p44409Smoked Salmon said:
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Chelsea scum and the internet
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Ok, that did give me a bit of a giggle.....S.L.R said:
Which means what?Schoolboy'sOwnStuff said:
I've heard this before. I may be in the minority on this (and, indeed, this is not the first time I have mentiomned this here or on other forums), but again, I am from that demographic and I was brought up to regard that word as offensive. I am not the only one.
I just don't buy the argument that because a lot of Spurs fans don't use it with the intent to be racist or offensive that it's cannot still be so. It's basically like saying the word "nigger" and then suggesting that you didn't intend to offend when you said it and it's ok because there are black people who say it.
To my mind, if there are elements of the target community who do feel racially offended by it, and if the term's origin is as a racial insult (or, indeed, has been adopted as a racial insult en masse in the past) then to me it doesn't really matter how many people use it without meaning to offend - it offends nonetheless.
If I were honest I think the reality is that so many Spurs fan are used to using it that they will find half a dozen excuses to justify it rather that accept the reality of what it represents.
So, if this is an opinion from a Jew that's not liked, neg away. I ain't changing it I'm afraid.
You misunderstand. See my points in that thread. I am 100% backing you up.Smoked Salmon said:
Ah, ok. Didn't read the rest of it.Schoolboy'sOwnStuff said:
The man doth have some rep.
You give. I'll take.Smoked Salmon said:
spooky
The Fighting Cock
I think with any word, its all in the context. I've witnessed plenty of fans (from Chelsea to Forest) with venom, using the word 'yid' in a quite savage derogatory way, with absolute hatred. What's incredible is that its usually directed at people who are not even Jewish, yet their anger towards us (Spurs, I assume or the Jewish community) is borderline psychotic.
Because its ambiguous (when is it a badge of honour and when is it potentially racist) it creates these types of debates. If we stopped using it and it guaranteed other fans from using it in a deforgatory way then we'd stop, wouldn't we? As using it wont stop them from being racist - and that's the crux of it, something that idiot Baddiel refuses to understand. He seems to think we fuel it whereas it makes not a blind bit of difference.
They (other fans) started it, we claimed it back as a way to defuse it.
It's a tricky one.
Because its ambiguous (when is it a badge of honour and when is it potentially racist) it creates these types of debates. If we stopped using it and it guaranteed other fans from using it in a deforgatory way then we'd stop, wouldn't we? As using it wont stop them from being racist - and that's the crux of it, something that idiot Baddiel refuses to understand. He seems to think we fuel it whereas it makes not a blind bit of difference.
They (other fans) started it, we claimed it back as a way to defuse it.
It's a tricky one.
But it's a racist word. Period.spooky said:
If just one Jewish Spurs fan in the stadium is offended when the crowd chant 'Yid Army', then it shouldn't be used. Can anyone tell me, hand in heart, that it doesn't offend anyone in the stadium. We've already had a couple on that dedicated thread and a further one here.
I understand what you are saying, and I don't for a minute think that the majority of Spurs fans set out to be racist in any way by it's use. I also don't really agree with Baddiel's idea that it is being fueled in other football fans. But I don't buy the "reclaimed it" theory at all.spooky said:
Again, to use my earlier analogy, what you are effectively saying is that if we started calling ourselves "the nigger army" it would be an act of recaliming it from racist fans of other clubs. Does that sound right to you? Doesn't sound right to me.
As I said before, I think it boils down to Spurs fans not willing to accept that although they don't intend to be racist, the word nonetheless has racist overtones, does casue offense and really should not be used at all, either passed off as "reclaimed" or used by opposition fans as an insult.
Here's a parting thought on this, if the idea was really to reclaim it, why not call ourselves the Yiddish Army? Yiddish isn't an offensive term, but it could be said to be combating the "yid" racism. Is the reasoning for not using "Yiddish" (or, indeed, Jewish) any better than it not sounding as good to sing?
spooky
The Fighting Cock
When they started calling us yids, it was probably just reactive to that. It was hardly planned out and thought about, probably Spurs fans singing back yids back at them and its stuck - across the 70s/80s and onwards.
Would be interested to know if the first instance was in the 70s as I've also heard that it started with Oswald Mosley marching through the streets during the mid-thirties blaming the Jews for everything and so legend has it, pointed to the East from Highbury (during a speech) and stating ‘down with the yids’. If its been on going since then, it sort of proves the point that the fundamental issue is that racists will do whatever they want to get their hatred across. Spurs fans took the sting out of it. The argument is what you've put forward (its still a racist word) - but again, its intent. Spurs fans chanting it (granted its uncomfortable for many to listen to) are not using it as an offensive word. Whereas an opposing fan is. There's a difference there.
Would be interested to know if the first instance was in the 70s as I've also heard that it started with Oswald Mosley marching through the streets during the mid-thirties blaming the Jews for everything and so legend has it, pointed to the East from Highbury (during a speech) and stating ‘down with the yids’. If its been on going since then, it sort of proves the point that the fundamental issue is that racists will do whatever they want to get their hatred across. Spurs fans took the sting out of it. The argument is what you've put forward (its still a racist word) - but again, its intent. Spurs fans chanting it (granted its uncomfortable for many to listen to) are not using it as an offensive word. Whereas an opposing fan is. There's a difference there.
I agree that intent is always important and a factor in any given situation when words are used.spooky said:
But words always have consequences. How many children go to WHL? What if they repeat it in school? How many adult fans know of the fact that it's a racist word? How many Jewish fans do you think should take their offence and shove it up their arses because the intent wasn't to be racist?
I think with anything it's a balancing act that must be carried out, and when it comes to words that are clearly identified as racist I'm really not covinced that the intent argument flies - well, not unless Spurs fans are complete uneducated fucksits who do not understand the word and it's origins.....which I don't believe.
Like I say, I think it's just a case of fans looking for a way to justify it's use. They are unwilling to do so because they may have to then wrestle with the notion that they have been singing racist chants and that may be unpalatable.
But, perhaps the real challenge is for fans who do not have the intent to be racist to accept that cutting out does not necessarily mean they have been knowingly racist in the past.
Tch. Typical anti-Sephardi favouritism.S.L.R said:
coalhada said:
Well they aren't really Yiddish, right?
Disclaimer: I'm probably wrong.
spooky
The Fighting Cock
Also - the word only gets used in football rather than day to day life. I can't ever imagine anyone saying it in any other ilk of conversation. I know I wouldn't dare to do so. Although granted, singing it on the trains to the games might offend people as there are so many who haven't got a clue about it. Amazingly, even some footie supporters I worked with didn't know about the Yid chant (which might be a consequence of them being fairweathers and never going to games).
You'd be surprised. I've heard both Yid and the even more charming "kike" in professional working environments, pubs, bars, restaurants, Many places.spooky said:
As it happens, I'm in Fulham today. Just had a crafty spit at Chelsea's Britannia Gate.
Why has this thread become an internalised debate of our use of the word yid. It should be about the depraved sensibilities of large contingent of Chelsea fans being anti social racist bigots with no human decency lay into the blue scum
The most ridiculous fucking thing is most of the Chelsea fans I've met in the States are East Asian, African or Middle Eastern. I've got a class with a Kenyan guy who wears a Lukaku top every matchday, which for Saint Louis is pretty uncommon (myself aside). I really would just love to show him some pics of Chelsea fans sieg heiling but I don't wanna break his heart, he's a pretty decent dude.
Guess its pointless really to get worked up about it, like others have said that club died when Abramovich took over.
Guess its pointless really to get worked up about it, like others have said that club died when Abramovich took over.