That last sentence is grossly misleading at best - at both ends of the spectrum, fans accuse others of not being 'real fans', it's a cheap and quite stupid insult. Obviously 99.9% of people here are here singularly because they are Spurs fans, so neither extreme should be accusing the other of not being fans. And it definitely happens in both directions.
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Why is it misleading to take arguments at face value? That's what's being said. "Progress" are measured by finance and infrastructure (and even side activities like concerts and NFL), not football trophies.
Right, well I'm not 'anti-ENIC', so does that mean you believe I think that 'the company part of the THFC is more important than the FC'? If so, then I find that insulting and ignorant. Why can't someone be pro-ENIC (or at least not 'anti-ENIC') based on their perception of footballing success, which for them is having very strong league campaigns for many years now?
Insulting?
Perhaps you should read back the last 50 ish pages of this thread, if you find my post insulting.
Oh. And the answer is: Because ENIC themselves claim to be ambitious for trophies. So, well, there.
Not sure what you mean - I've read the last 50 pages of this thread, in fact I've posted on many of them. There have been some stupid and appalling things said on both sides (not just one side, as people on each side often try to claim) - that doesn't mean you or I should follow that same path. Yes I find it insulting that (if I understand correctly) you're basically accusing me of not being a real Spurs fan just because I disagree with you on what constitutes success for a club like us. I try so hard to understand and accept others' views, so I find it disappointing and infuriating when people won't give me the same basic level of respect back.
I repeat - we are all Spurs fans, we just have different opinions on what constitutes success for the club, how best to achieve it, and what causes us to deviate from it.
I'm not accusing you of not being a real Spurs fan.
Fine - then apologies for misunderstanding. Reading back through your earlier post that I responded to, it does very much read as though you are, but perhaps I'm reading it incorrectly somehow - let's assume so. As long as we can agree that not being 'anti-ENIC' (which many people on here call being 'pro-ENIC') doesn't necessarily mean someone believes 'the company part of the THFC is more important than the FC' after all then great. :/
I'm reading the arguments being made, not the thoughts of the people writing them.
That's what arguments are being made: Trophies and titles matter not, when we are making progress on infrastructure etc. It's all in the thread. So please don't attribute the argument to me.
everyone has the right to be wrong
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Ok, so perhaps for some people that's fine - but just to be clear, that isn't all of 'us' - there are plenty of people on here like me (even just in the last few pages of this thread) who cite footballing relative success as their primary reason for not being against ENIC. Which of course is their right / opinion. Some may mention infrastructure etc, but not as their sole argument. The number of people who basically say 'screw footballing success, it's only the business that matters' are extremely few (in fact I've never seen any on this forum personally - perhaps you have).
PS You're missing a crucial element above - you contrast "trophies and titles" and 'progress on infrastructure etc', but you fail to recognise that for many people footballing success may be about league position, not just trophies and titles. That's where the vast majority of 'non-anti-ENIC' people sit, as fas as I can see.
I know you mean that as a jokeeveryone has the right to be wrong
but it is sadly a huge problem on this forum - so many people here simply think others are 'wrong', unable to instead accept that others just have a different 'take' to them. Or maybe I'm just 'wrong' on that.
But that ain't what ENIC is selling. ENIC is selling buzzwords of titles and trophies. Using their own literal words. And that's their justification for pricing us accordingly. It's 100% bullshit. By their own measuring stick they are an abject, 21 year failure. And supporters are perfectly entitled to believe that.
Yes, supporters who believe that are perfectly entitled to do, and to voice their opinions as such on here, and I've most certainly never said otherwise.
Equally supporters who maintain their own criteria of success, hold their own interpretation of what 'ENIC is selling', and their own opinion of the relative success / failure of the last 21 years, are entitled to do so too.
It's not only one end of the spectrum that is allowed to have an opinion.
I agree, I am in the ENIC out camp but unlike many I never got wound up by Airfix robust defence of themI know you mean that as a joke
Or maybe I'm just 'wrong' on that.
I'm measuring ENIC by their own stick.
That's brought me endless of abuse, insults and even casual xenophobia, so please don't patent the victim role here.
I'm not trying to play a sole victim at all - on the contrary, I'm saying that both you and I, and everyone else on here, deserves the basic respect of being allowed an opinion without ludicrous accusations being thrown at them - insults, abuse, xenophobia, being called 'bots', accused of being on ENIC's payroll, not being 'real fans', supporting the business more than the football club, not being 'financially savvy' etc (I'm sure there are hundreds more on both sides).
None of those insults, from anyone to anyone, on either side of the argument, are appropriate or helpful. Hopefully we agree on that at least?
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I don't think it's an "insult" to say some users here seem support the business rather than the FC. After all, they sometimes make the arguments themselves, that e.g. football trophies are irrelevant because we built a stadium, are more financially stable etc.
You can't make an argument, and then claim victimhood for making it. It's not that hard.
If Conte isn’t backed, and walks, what will the ENIC apologists say then? The general consensus is he’s not happy. Remember that January war chest.
As I said, I don't see users here saying that at all, I see them talking about the business as well as the football side. Or do you seriously think people with no interest in football make the effort to join a specific football club's forum because they 'follow' its owners? :/
Ok, given your reply to my question, it seems we can't agree that insults (or anything considered insults by those on the receiving end) on either side are unhelpful. Oh well, I tried. Can't say I'm surprised, sadly.
Really? I understand it fully well. Partisan supporters including me are constantly faced with mockery from other supporters and even the press.
So we grap whatever straw we can, and the business development side of Spurs has been significant compared to a number of other mid table clubs, to the point of us along with Woolwich being the most developed football businesses outside of the sugar-daddy clubs. Along with an overal improvement in league performances, in particular in the Redknapp and Poch reigns, that is a forceful reply to outsiders.
That partisanships slowly creeps into the inter-supporter bickerings. Not hard to understand at all, IMO.
Unfortunately, it's not an answer to the discrepancy in that huge big fucking elephant sized topic, which ENIC would rather not discuss: The difference between what ENIC says and what ENIC does.
Let alone how well ENIC does it.
Ok, given your reply to my question, it seems we can't agree that insults (or anything considered insults by those on the receiving end) on either side are unhelpful. Oh well, I tried. Can't say I'm surprised, sadly.
That's literally not what I said, though. Literally.
Please stop making up stuff in order to reclaim victimhood.