Management ENIC

[CJJ]

I've not yet seen a single Levy / ENiC supporter / sympathiser / apologist / whatever ....make any reasonable case for justifying this glaring, damning disparity.
Not anywhere. Not ever.
It's a conversation they like to avoid, because it blows their whole case wide open.

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I've actually done it a few times.

Here's the links to the last two posts about it that were ignored

Management - ENIC

So you're satisfied with us finishing in 17th place then . No, and neither are the club, hence why they sacked Postecoglou and hence why I agree with that He hires these so called football directors and then tells them what to do . He has a hand in every deal the club does causing us to end...

thefightingcock.co.uk

Management - ENIC

Not really a surprise but a lot of very hypocritical and contradictory stuff now being put out there by sections of support, and especially the media. Oh do go on...

thefightingcock.co.uk

 

[dudu]

Examples from some clubs with their 'payroll' league table position. Woolwich (3rd) seem to pay everyone double what other clubs would

Range	Man City (1st)	Man Utd (2nd)	Chelsea (4th)	Liverpool (5th)	Tottenham (7th)	Villa (6th)	Newcastle (9th)
£0-49k	Rico Lewis - £25k	Chido Obi-Martin - £15k Mainoo - £25k Dorgu - £40k Heaton - £45k	DD Fofana - £30k Lavia - £45k	Curtis Jones - £15k Elliot - £40k Endo - £50k	Kinsky - £20k Odobert - £25k Spence - £40k	Disasi - £40k	Lewis Hall - £7k Lascalles, Dubravka - £40k Wilson - £46k
£50k-99k	Doku, Bobb - £50k Ortega - £90k	Garnacho - £50k Evans - £65k Dalot, Hojlund - £85k	Madueke - £50k Sanchez - £60k Dewsbury-Hall - £80k	Diaz - £55k Marmadashvilli - £60k Konate - £70k Tsimikas - £75k Gomes - £85k	Van der Ven - £50k Bissouma - £55k Bergvall - £65k Johnson, Sarr - £70k Forster, Gray, Bentancur, Vicario, Udogie - £75k Davies - £80k Dragusin, Porro - £85k Richi, Solanke - £90k	Barkley - £60k Ramsay - £70k Rodgers, Konsa - £75k Cash - £80k	Longstaff, Livramento - £50k Pope, Schar - £60k Burns - £70k Willock, Barnes - £80k Botman - £90k
£100k-149k	Edinson - £100k Mathius Nunez - £130k	Zirkzee - £105k Yoro - £115k Onana, Martinez, Diallo, Ugarte, Lindelof - £120k	Mudryk, Colwill, Jackson, Chilwell - £100k Palmer - £120k	Szoboszlai, Gakpo - £120k Nunez, Jota - £140k	Kulusevski - £110k	Mings, Maatsen, Torres - £100k McGinn, Bailey, Ginn - £120k Watkins - £130k Malen - £140k	Targett - £100k Isak, Trippier, Tonali - £120k
£150k-199k	Kovacic - £150k Ake - £160k Akanji, Dias - £180k	Shaw, Eriksen - £150k Maguire - £190k De Ligt - £195k	Caiciedo - £150k	Chiesa, Gravenbach, Allison, Mac Allister - £150k Robertson - £160k	Romero - £165k Maddison - £170k Son - £190k	Martinez, Tielemens, Kamara - £150k	Joelinton, Gordon - £150k Guimaraes - £160k
£200k+	Gvardiol - £200k Foden - £225k Stones - £250k Marmoush - £295k Grealish - £300k De Bruyne - £400k Haaland - £525k	Mount - £250k Fernandes - £300k Casimero - £350k	Wesley Fofana - £200k Reece James - £250k	VVD - £350k Salah - £400k	-	-	-

City and Liverpool are both recent league title winners, and have some Champions League winners, so I'd naturally expect them to be a cut above. Man City and Man Utd seem to be offering wages that are unnecessary and other teams wouldn't pay. Don't know why Chelsea are paying Reece James over £1m a month as he's rarely fit.

Last season we would have seen Perisic on £180k plus Lloris and Hojbjerg on £100k, so we've trimmed nearly £300k a week off players who didn't play for Ange.


If VVD and Salah left without renewing their contracts, that's £39m a year on those players alone (about to turn 34 and 33 respectively)

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and united 500k a week on Mount and Cassimero

LOL

People don't want to actually look at the money and how it is being spent - they just look at a nice context-less graph and make up a narrative.

 

[dudu]

I've actually done it a few times.

Here's the links to the last two posts about it that were ignored

Management - ENIC

So you're satisfied with us finishing in 17th place then . No, and neither are the club, hence why they sacked Postecoglou and hence why I agree with that He hires these so called football directors and then tells them what to do . He has a hand in every deal the club does causing us to end...

thefightingcock.co.uk

Management - ENIC

Not really a surprise but a lot of very hypocritical and contradictory stuff now being put out there by sections of support, and especially the media. Oh do go on...

thefightingcock.co.uk

Click to shrink...

Mate, the poster youre engaging with doesnt do replies - he ignores any kind of real debate and just says the same thing over and over again.

don't waste your time.

 

[CJJ]

and united 500k a week on Mount and Cassimero

LOL

People don't want to actually look at the money and how it is being spent - they just look at a nice context-less graph and make up a narrative.

Click to shrink...

The spread is baffling. We could easily sign Ederson and give him a pay rise, but Grealish would eclipse our pay just to match it.

Imagine being Ederson with over 350 games for City, 6 PLs and 6 domestic cups, a CL, a CWC, and a super cup all won for the club. The sign Ortega as a back up, who has spent the majority of his career in the 2nd division or lower in Germany and no international caps, and he's like "Hi mate; I asked for pretty much the same contract as you and they said ok"

Or Chelsea, where they're like "ooh I don't think Reece James - our beloved captain and one-of-our-own is going to want to build on his 80 premier league appearances here unless we pay him £250k per week" at the same times as thinking "new first team goalkeeper? Nah, 60k tops"

 

[Coys1955]

Malaysia not really known for oil wealth, is it?. Palm oil money more like

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I’m afraid it is. It’s a net exporter and produces approximately 700,000 barrels of oil and 7 billion cubic feet of gas per day. It’s their biggest asset by far.

 

[dudu]

The spread is baffling. We could easily sign Ederson and give him a pay rise, but Grealish would eclipse our pay just to match it.

Imagine being Ederson with over 350 games for City, 6 PLs and 6 domestic cups, a CL, a CWC, and a super cup all won for the club. The sign Ortega as a back up, who has spent the majority of his career in the 2nd division or lower in Germany and no international caps, and he's like "Hi mate; I asked for pretty much the same contract as you and they said ok"

Or Chelsea, where they're like "ooh I don't think Reece James - our beloved captain and one-of-our-own is going to want to build on his 80 premier league appearances here unless we pay him £250k per week" at the same times as thinking "new first team goalkeeper? Nah, 60k tops"

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Also imagine the uproar if we signed someone like Mount on 250k, Darwin on 140k a week.

The market is fucked up -

And that's not me saying i don't want to be more competitive or pay top wages for the right player.....

But honestly, more often than not looking at that list, players signed on those huge wages arent the ones moving the needle all that much.

Mount, Cassimero, Fofana, Zirkzee, Yoro, Onana, Mydruk, De Light, Jesus, Haavertz - haven't done jack shit to improve their sides.....

Sure some do - but actually, looking through that list there is a fuck tonne of value below the 150k a week mark and plenty below the 100k mark too.

And again, we are talking about the wages players were purchased at - not what they earn with improved contracts.

 

[CJJ]

Also imagine the uproar if we signed someone like Mount on 250k, Darwin on 140k a week.

The market is fucked up -

And that's not me saying i don't want to be more competitive or pay top wages for the right player.....

But honestly, more often than not looking at that list, players signed on those huge wages arent the ones moving the needle all that much.

Mount, Cassimero, Fofana, Zirkzee, Yoro, Onana, Mydruk, De Light, Jesus, Haavertz - haven't done jack shit to improve their sides.....

Sure some do - but actually, looking through that list there is a fuck tonne of value below the 150k a week mark and plenty below the 100k mark too.

And again, we are talking about the wages players were purchased at - not what they earn with improved contracts.

Click to shrink...

That's what I don't 'get' about the argument of "we don't win because of wages etc".

Paying our existing player an extra £30-50k per week isn't going to make them better players. It's not like we agree to pay them for x% of their effort. If we did, they're better off being sold.
Equally, we aren't seeing players on £200k plus that signed for that as game-changing players.

I think a few years back Simon Jordan or someone was saying (paraphrased) "if they win the league, they'll get salaries to match. You don't give parity to teams that do if the players aren't good enough to compete". It has also been maybe a decade or more, I feel, since a player of ours left because we couldn't meet their wage demands.

On the surface it looks like an argument based on the game mechanics of an Amiga football management game, where overall wage bill dictates squad performance. We clearly pay a lot more than Newcastle, so why aren't we finishing above them, with that same exact ruleset.

 

[citizenabel]

Levy is easy to get rid of, ENIC less so and unless someone or some group comes up with the necessary finances that satisfies or meets the valuation of the major shareholders the protesters can continue to pi$$ against the wind.

Just look at the Glazers, they've continued to ignore the protests and have now found a new scapegoat to pay over a billion for the privilege of taking most of the backlash for a percentage stake less than Levy has?

Cash flow is our problem so we need new money with deep pockets. ENIC has wealth but not interested in spending on the football side of things and Levy's wealth is tied to the Club so without it he has very little.

Other clubs prepared to risk spending a much higher % of turnover do so because they are prepared to forego profit and dip into their own pockets. ENIC won't and Levy can't therefore the time seems right for someone new to come in and take over the reigns. Here's hoping the takeover rumours have some substance.....I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Ed Vanderlay]

But you can't care that much - you support a football team he owns, and if you invest money into it, well, you know how it's being used!

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My point is that he is a scumbag in my opinion , so I am not going to get all holier than thou about any future ownership . It will be very difficult to find someone who can spend 4.5 billion who will pass the sniff test . I just can’t buy into the we can’t get bought out by a Malaysian oil company view , or a Qatari vehicle.

In an ideal world we get bought by a good hearted philanthropist, but we all know that is highly unlikely.

 

[Kevin Ball]

Have a look in the table above - apart from a handful on bonkers salaries, none of the players we'd competed for are on that much.

For example Diaz - £55k. People will think we didn't "cough up" for him, but we have the likes of Johnson on £70k and Dragusin and Porro on £85k, so something doesn't add up.

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Yes I see the table . You notice we don't have any players on more than £200k , that's where we are as a club . If you want to dine at the top table you have to put your hand in your pocket to pay for it . We need an elite player or 2 , that's what it takes to make that last bit of difference to winning games/leagues . Someone who can inject a bit of world class football to change the tempo or tip the balance of the game in our favour .

 

[walter]

That's what I don't 'get' about the argument of "we don't win because of wages etc".

Paying our existing player an extra £30-50k per week isn't going to make them better players. It's not like we agree to pay them for x% of their effort. If we did, they're better off being sold.
Equally, we aren't seeing players on £200k plus that signed for that as game-changing players.

I think a few years back Simon Jordan or someone was saying (paraphrased) "if they win the league, they'll get salaries to match. You don't give parity to teams that do if the players aren't good enough to compete". It has also been maybe a decade or more, I feel, since a player of ours left because we couldn't meet their wage demands.

On the surface it looks like an argument based on the game mechanics of an Amiga football management game, where overall wage bill dictates squad performance. We clearly pay a lot more than Newcastle, so why aren't we finishing above them, with that same exact ruleset.

Click to shrink...

Actually it's been repeatedly shown that there's a strong correlation between what clubs pay in wages, and their league position.

Obviously every season you get outliers, and some clubs manage to buck the trend for a few years or more, but as a general rule the more money you pay the better performance you get.

 

[CJJ]

Yes I see the table . You notice we don't have any players on more than £200k , that's where we are as a club . If you want to dine at the top table you have to put your hand in your pocket to pay for it . We need an elite player or 2 , that's what it takes to make that last bit of difference to winning games/leagues . Someone who can inject a bit of world class football to change the tempo or tip the balance of the game in our favour .

Click to shrink...

Harry Kane was until he left. You'll see that there are very few players in the £200k category. Willing to be that Man Utd are basically the only team in the PL not to have won it in the past decade that are paying players £200k or more.

Would you rather be paying Reece James £250k? Is he 'Elite'? Would any of these £200k+ players actually make much difference to the squad?

• Mount
• Casimero
• Marmoush
• Grealish
• Stones
• Foden

There's a slim but questionable argument for Grealish/Foden, but I don't think swapping Romero or VdV for Stones would make a difference.

 

[Honest John]

Actually it's been repeatedly shown that there's a strong correlation between what clubs pay in wages, and their league position.

Obviously every season you get outliers, and some clubs manage to buck the trend for a few years or more, but as a general rule the more money you pay the better performance you get.

Click to shrink...

The question also has to be asked, if we're spending less of our revenue on player wages than every single club in every major league in Europe, where the actual fuck is all that extra revenue going?

 

[VirginiaSpur]

The question also has to be asked, if we're spending less of our revenue on player wages than every single club in every major league in Europe, where the actual fuck is all that extra revenue going?

Click to shrink...

Why don't you go review the financial statements?

 

[CJJ]

Actually it's been repeatedly shown that there's a strong correlation between what clubs pay in wages, and their league position.

Click to shrink...

People say that a lot, but it doesn't really. 5th placed Liverpool just walked the league. 2nd placed Man Utd just finished, what 15th? 19th placed Brentford finished 10th.

You have to squint and have a real snort of "wanting to see it" powder.

Woolwich finished 2nd in 22/23 but were below us in wages in 5th. In 2017/18 we finished 3rd, but were 7th highest wages below Everton who were 8th.

As I say, the term "strong correlation" is doing a lot of heavy lifting for something so easy to poke holes in

 

[walter]

People say that a lot, but it doesn't really. 5th placed Liverpool just walked the league. 2nd placed Man Utd just finished, what 15th? 19th placed Brentford finished 10th.

You have to squint and have a real snort of "wanting to see it" powder.

Woolwich finished 2nd in 22/23 but were below us in wages in 5th. In 2017/18 we finished 3rd, but were 7th highest wages below Everton who were 8th.

As I say, the term "strong correlation" is doing a lot of heavy lifting for something so easy to poke holes in

Click to shrink...

Obviously every season you get outliers, and some clubs manage to buck the trend for a few years or more, but as a general rule the more money you pay the better performance you get.

Click to shrink...

 

[Honest John]

Why don't you go review the financial statements?

Click to shrink...

Why not just answer the question?

 

[dudu]

My point is that he is a scumbag in my opinion , so I am not going to get all holier than thou about any future ownership . It will be very difficult to find someone who can spend 4.5 billion who will pass the sniff test . I just can’t buy into the we can’t get bought out by a Malaysian oil company view , or a Qatari vehicle.

In an ideal world we get bought by a good hearted philanthropist, but we all know that is highly unlikely.

Click to shrink...

I mean, it's not unlikely - it would never ever happen.

The whole game is corrupt from top to bottom.

We all have our levels as to what kind of corruption we can stomach for how long.

I personally draw the line at money coming directly from groups engaged in perpetuating wars and who discriminate against women and people who have a different sexual orientation.

 

[Honest John]

Levy is easy to get rid of, ENIC less so and unless someone or some group comes up with the necessary finances that satisfies or meets the valuation of the major shareholders the protesters can continue to pi$$ against the wind.

Just look at the Glazers, they've continued to ignore the protests and have now found a new scapegoat to pay over a billion for the privilege of taking most of the backlash for a percentage stake less than Levy has?

Cash flow is our problem so we need new money with deep pockets. ENIC has wealth but not interested in spending on the football side of things and Levy's wealth is tied to the Club so without it he has very little.

Other clubs prepared to risk spending a much higher % of turnover do so because they are prepared to forego profit and dip into their own pockets. ENIC won't and Levy can't therefore the time seems right for someone new to come in and take over the reigns. Here's hoping the takeover rumours have some substance.....I'm not holding my breath.

Click to shrink...

He's not easy to get rid of as he owns around 30% of ENIC

Levy and convicted felon Lewis (nominally his family) essentially ARE ENIC

 

[manmountainbutters]

That's what I don't 'get' about the argument of "we don't win because of wages etc".

Paying our existing player an extra £30-50k per week isn't going to make them better players. It's not like we agree to pay them for x% of their effort. If we did, they're better off being sold.
Equally, we aren't seeing players on £200k plus that signed for that as game-changing players.

I think a few years back Simon Jordan or someone was saying (paraphrased) "if they win the league, they'll get salaries to match. You don't give parity to teams that do if the players aren't good enough to compete". It has also been maybe a decade or more, I feel, since a player of ours left because we couldn't meet their wage demands.

On the surface it looks like an argument based on the game mechanics of an Amiga football management game, where overall wage bill dictates squad performance. We clearly pay a lot more than Newcastle, so why aren't we finishing above them, with that same exact ruleset.

Click to shrink...

We have finished about Newcastle in I think all but one or two of the past 10 seasons?

Tbf none of us actually know how financially constrained we are, Simon Jordan runs around shouting "banking covenants" without any further detail, which doesn't close the issue by any means. I'd be very surprised, despite the stadium debt, if we couldn't significantly increase our wage spend sustainably. We are a pretty solid credit risk given the business model.