Player João Palhinha

[_mehstg]

What a bunch of garbage.

Click to shrink...

Care to elaborate

Would he get in front of Rice and the Zubimedi? No. What about Rodri and Reijnders? No. What about Caicedo and Fernandez? No. Ok, MacAllister and Gracenbach? No. Rather than just saying garbage try debating unless of course you live in Birmingham and all you see is garbage. Santos, Curtis Jones, Gonzalez, Norgaard... all players that might not be first choice and are all better or equal to Palhinha. Shit, I'd even take Tonali, Guimaraes or Joelinto over Palhinha and I dont even seen the barcodes as a direct rival.

 

[Shadydan]

Care to elaborate

Would he get in front of Rice and the Zubimedi? No. What about Rodri and Reijnders? No. What about Caicedo and Fernandez? No. Ok, MacAllister and Gracenbach? No. Rather than just saying garbage try debating unless of course you live in Birmingham and all you see is garbage.

Click to shrink...

But you said 'make the bench' not whether they'd start or not.

Let's not try and move the goalposts here.

 

[Don Pedro]

Tottenham’s Palhinha problem

This Athletic article covers the same discussion. The gist is much like the general consensus on here: hard games = Paul, Ben + Bergval/Sarr/Simons, but not every game needs this. Highlights our struggles to progress through the midfield with Paul + Ben combination

Click to shrink...

100%. Palhinha is brilliant in games like PSG and Man City. He was our best player against City! Lets take nothing away.

But he's not a ball playing 6. I don't know why people need to get offended by this. Its just the reality and its no knock on him as he's got his own attributes which make him a very good 6 for different reasons. Bournemouth set the template on how to stop us dominating a game. Simply man mark Bentancur during the build up and leave Palhinha free. And all of a sudden our midfield build up has been taken out and we're asking Porro to kick it long to Richarlison who can't seem to win any duals anymore! At least if Solanke is fit then the plan B might work!

For me the solution is a midfield 2 of Bentancur and Bergval as both can build up and teams can't man-mark both and if they do then they are potentially overpressing. That's how i view the current issues anyway. Still early in the season so limited evidence. Lets see what the next few games bring. I don't think Frank is going to change much yet but I'd like to think he is questioning the Palhinha/Bentancur combo in "easier" games where we should be dominating the ball better.

 

[Shadydan]

100%. Palhinha is brilliant in games like PSG and Man City. He was our best player against City! Lets take nothing away.

But he's not a ball playing 6. I don't know why people need to get offended by this. Its just the reality and its no knock on him as he's got his own attributes which make him a very good 6 for different reasons. Bournemouth set the template on how to stop us dominating a game. Simply man mark Bentancur during the build up and leave Palhinha free. And all of a sudden our midfield build up has been taken out and we're asking Porro to kick it long to Richarlison who can't seem to win any duals anymore! At least if Solanke is fit then the plan B might work!

For me the solution is a midfield 2 of Bentancur and Bergval as both can build up and teams can't man-mark both and if they do then they are potentially overpressing. That's how i view the current issues anyway. Still early in the season so limited evidence. Lets see what the next few games bring. I don't think Frank is going to change much yet but I'd like to think he is questioning the Palhinha/Bentancur combo in "easier" games where we should be dominating the ball better.

Click to shrink...

Why is Palhinha seen as the safe option when he passes forward more than Bentancur and is contributing to our attack more than him? Bentancur is more press resistant on the ball but he doesn't progress the ball any better than Palhinha.

 

[Don Pedro]

Why is Palhinha seen as the safe option when he passes forward more than Bentancur and is contributing to our attack more than him? Bentancur is more press resistant on the ball but he doesn't progress the ball any better than Palhinha.

Click to shrink...

Palhinha is more direct for sure but he does ghost and doesn't look for the ball in tight areas. Its very hard to play through the midfield if he's the main outlet. If there is a player within a yard of him then he doesn't want that pass. If we want to dominate the ball in these games then Bentancur is the 6 you want. Palhinha in other games where we are happy to give up possession more cheaply. That's how I'd view it but open to discussion

 

[VonnegutBusy]

Palhinha is more direct for sure but he does ghost and doesn't look for the ball in tight areas. Its very hard to play through the midfield if he's the main outlet. If there is a player within a yard of him then he doesn't want that pass. If we want to dominate the ball in these games then Bentancur is the 6 you want. Palhinha in other games where we are happy to give up possession more cheaply. That's how I'd view it but open to discussion

Click to shrink...

Bentancur is famous for hiding. He's a pretty rubbish 6 tbh. Decent 8 but as a 6 Palhinha is the far superior player regardless of opposition.

 

[Shadydan]

Palhinha is more direct for sure but he does ghost and doesn't look for the ball in tight areas. Its very hard to play through the midfield if he's the main outlet. If there is a player within a yard of him then he doesn't want that pass. If we want to dominate the ball in these games then Bentancur is the 6 you want. Palhinha in other games where we are happy to give up possession more cheaply. That's how I'd view it but open to discussion

Click to shrink...

The problem is that Bentancur doesn't really do anything with the ball, he may want it in tight areas but he doesn't really progress it, he's a bit of a nothing player when he plays as a 6 - At least with Palhinha you're getting his OOP work which is something lacking with Bentancur.

 

[manmountainbutters]

Care to elaborate

Would he get in front of Rice and the Zubimedi? No. What about Rodri and Reijnders? No. What about Caicedo and Fernandez? No. Ok, MacAllister and Gracenbach? No. Rather than just saying garbage try debating unless of course you live in Birmingham and all you see is garbage. Santos, Curtis Jones, Gonzalez, Norgaard... all players that might not be first choice and are all better or equal to Palhinha. Shit, I'd even take Tonali, Guimaraes or Joelinto over Palhinha and I dont even seen the barcodes as a direct rival.

Click to shrink...

I would 100% have Palhinha in front of Zubimendi, Reijnders, Fernandez and MacAllister.

He's in the mix. Different type of player. Better ball winner than any of the players you've mentioned. He allows us to have a box to box and a No.10. We need the no.10 and LW sorted more than anything else. The rest of the team is functioning reasonably well for a newish team and coach.

 

[manmountainbutters]

Tottenham’s Palhinha problem

This Athletic article covers the same discussion. The gist is much like the general consensus on here: hard games = Paul, Ben + Bergval/Sarr/Simons, but not every game needs this. Highlights our struggles to progress through the midfield with Paul + Ben combination

Click to shrink...

I don't subscribe. So all I got was (yet) another shot of the dude's six pack

 

[Don Pedro]

I would 100% have Palhinha in front of Zubimendi, Reijnders, Fernandez and MacAllister.

He's in the mix. Different type of player. Better ball winner than any of the players you've mentioned. He allows us to have a box to box and a No.10. We need the no.10 and LW sorted more than anything else. The rest of the team is functioning reasonably well for a newish team and coach.

Click to shrink...

He's a totally different profile to the players you mentioned. As an OOP 6 then he probably is better than them but in terms of total all around midfielder, or a ball playing 6, then he's a long way behind the players you mentioned.

 

[manmountainbutters]

He's a totally different profile to the players you mentioned. As an OOP 6 then he probably is better than them but in terms of total all around midfielder, or a ball playing 6, then he's a long way behind the players you mentioned.

Click to shrink...

Yeah. I was responding to someone else naming them. It was a bit of an odd point i was responding to, true.

I disagree re the "all around midfielder". He's better at some things and worse at others. To the extent he isn't as good at ball playing then we have to (a) work to improve him (b) find other outlets. You'll have noticed Romero does a lot of it. And that isn't a problem- even if I think Romero often holds the ball for a predictably long time. Might suprise the oppo if Romero actually played a quick through ball now and again

 

[Don Pedro]

The problem is that Bentancur doesn't really do anything with the ball, he may want it in tight areas but he doesn't really progress it, he's a bit of a nothing player when he plays as a 6 - At least with Palhinha you're getting his OOP work which is something lacking with Bentancur.

Click to shrink...

I get what your saying. Palhinha is 100% better than Bentancur OOP, that is undesputable. I just think if you have Sarr or Bergvall in the 8 then Bentancur can lead the build up better and can just play boring.

The main problem with the Palhinha/Bentancur combo is that Bentancur is not really offering any sort of creativity or goal threat from the 8. Which is annoying because he was brilliant there under Conte when he had Hojbjerg beside him. For me he's a long way behind Sarr and Bergvall on all known form in the 8. Sarr and Bergvall get goals and assists and regularly make box to box runs. Bentancur plays almost too safe now that I'd only see us utilizing him as a 6.

 

[Don Pedro]

Yeah. I was responding to someone else naming them. It was a bit of an odd point i was responding to, true.

I disagree re the "all around midfielder". He's better at some things and worse at others. To the extent he isn't as good at ball playing then we have to (a) work to improve him (b) find other outlets. You'll have noticed Romero does a lot of it. And that isn't a problem- even if I think Romero often holds the ball for a predictably long time. Might suprise the oppo if Romero actually played a quick through ball now and again

Click to shrink...

Yeah I do wish Romero did more of this. 100% our best build up player. Press resistant and and can play brilliant long balls. That assist for Bergvall against West Ham was one of the assists of the season!

Romero can be too casual sometimes. Its like he's just playing in second gear. I wish he showed more of it.

 

[Airfixx]

Yeah I do wish Romero did more of this. 100% our best build up player. Press resistant and and can play brilliant long balls. That assist for Bergvall against West Ham was one of the assists of the season!

Romero can be too casual sometimes. Its like he's just playing in second gear. I wish he showed more of it.

Click to shrink...

I'd happily sacrifice some of the on the ball ability if it meant he was consistently the laser-focused none-shall-pass terminator that he becomes in games like the ELg & WCup finals.

 

[manmountainbutters]

I get what your saying. Palhinha is 100% better than Bentancur OOP, that is undesputable. I just think if you have Sarr or Bergvall in the 8 then Bentancur can lead the build up better and can just play boring.

The main problem with the Palhinha/Bentancur combo is that Bentancur is not really offering any sort of creativity or goal threat from the 8. Which is annoying because he was brilliant there under Conte when he had Hojbjerg beside him. For me he's a long way behind Sarr and Bergvall on all known form in the 8. Sarr and Bergvall get goals and assists and regularly make box to box runs. Bentancur plays almost too safe now that I'd only see us utilizing him as a 6.

Click to shrink...

TBH I'm coming to the view we can and should do better than Bentancur. Ok player, but we have enough of those. We have Pal and Gray as 6s. We should go all out for another elite 8 next summer.

If you line up our MFs:

- Pal
- Gray
- Kulu
- Madders
- Sarr
- Berg
- Xavi
- Bent
- Biss

Other than Biss, where we probably can lose without replacing, Bent is the one that you'd want to upgrade

 

[Shadydan]

I get what your saying. Palhinha is 100% better than Bentancur OOP, that is undesputable. I just think if you have Sarr or Bergvall in the 8 then Bentancur can lead the build up better and can just play boring.

The main problem with the Palhinha/Bentancur combo is that Bentancur is not really offering any sort of creativity or goal threat from the 8. Which is annoying because he was brilliant there under Conte when he had Hojbjerg beside him. For me he's a long way behind Sarr and Bergvall on all known form in the 8. Sarr and Bergvall get goals and assists and regularly make box to box runs. Bentancur plays almost too safe now that I'd only see us utilizing him as a 6.

Click to shrink...

You're not really getting much of an upside with Bentancur, he attempts slightly more forward passes but he has a worse success rate which means he's giving the ball away more often - whilst Palhinha will look after the ball a bit better in that regard.

Bentancur is a far better 8 in a counter attacking system, he's good at ball carrying and box crashing, that's it really.

 

[CarrieFi]

I don't subscribe. So all I got was (yet) another shot of the dude's six pack

Click to shrink...

Lucky you

 

[Shadydan]

TBH I'm coming to the view we can and should do better than Bentancur. Ok player, but we have enough of those. We have Pal and Gray as 6s. We should go all out for another elite 8 next summer.

Click to shrink...

Agreed, don't see the point of signing Palhinha and then offering Bentancur a new contract.

Palhinha isn't the perfect player but he does raise the flaw of this team, I'd be happy to have him on a longer term if you're looking for that passing 6 to eventually phase him out.

 

[Don Pedro]

You're not really getting much of an upside with Bentancur, he attempts slightly more forward passes but he has a worse success rate which means he's giving the ball away more often - whilst Palhinha will look after the ball a bit better in that regard.

Bentancur is a far better 8 in a counter attacking system, he's good at ball carrying and box crashing, that's it really.

Click to shrink...

Yeah I've always been a big fan of Bentancur but I'm starting to doubt him now. For me he was playing an impossible role last season so forgave all his bad performances. He was an 8 asked to play as a lone 6 for a team that was constantly left exposed.

But this season Frank has giving him his perfect conditions. Palhinha is there to do majority of the dirty work and Bentancur should have more freedom to impact games like he used to under Conte. But he's not stepping up and looks a shadow of that player. A Palhinha/Bentancur combo would work if Bentancur was getting forward and creating or getting chances. He's not doing that and we just look so predictable on the ball.

 

[Shadydan]

Yeah I've always been a big fan of Bentancur but I'm starting to doubt him now. For me he was playing an impossible role last season so forgave all his bad performances. He was an 8 asked to play as a lone 6 for a team that was constantly left exposed.

But this season Frank has giving him his perfect conditions. Palhinha is there to do majority of the dirty work and Bentancur should have more freedom to impact games like he used to under Conte. But he's not stepping up and looks a shadow of that player. A Palhinha/Bentancur combo would work if Bentancur was getting forward and creating or getting chances. He's not doing that and we just look so predictable on the ball.

Click to shrink...

I think there's still room for the Pal/Ben combo, it's totally fine for away matches when teams come at us (like Brighton away), in fact I'm expecting them to start against Bodo and Leeds, we don't have to play football in those matches, just win our duels and lock down the midfield spaces and that gives us a foothold in the match.

Home matches though or at least matches where we need to dominate the ball and open teams up is an absolute no-no.