Player Micky van de Ven

[Herclueless]

Literally Pep bought and used Walker at City for years as his sprint safety valve. The greatest coach of all time basically relying on someone’s sprinting power as a key part of his system.

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And?

Doesn't make it any more sensible to make one particular attribute of a rather injury prone player a key feature of your system.

VDVs speed should be a bonus to the system, not integral to making it work.

Walker being out for City was less of a problem than VDV being out for us, because the rest of the side was strong enough to get by without it. They utilised his pace, it would be stupid not to, but they weren't reliant on it.

 

[kingdawson]

Your points are both valid about it not being rushed back on this occasion (definitely Chelsea game but maybe not this one).
Why is Ange lying about a setback though?

 

[kingdawson]

Why do you think he’s lying this time?

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because he's not back? and the news coming out is that he needs a scan?

Ange categorically stated there had been no set backs and he also has not re-injured himself. All the evidence presented says there, at the very least, has been some sort of setback.

You believe it's just VDV not fancying it still?

 

[Richard Arlison]

And?

Doesn't make it any more sensible to make one particular attribute of a rather injury prone player a key feature of your system.

VDVs speed should be a bonus to the system, not integral to making it work.

Walker being out for City was less of a problem than VDV being out for us, because the rest of the side was strong enough to get by without it. They utilised his pace, it would be stupid not to, but they weren't reliant on it.

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You build your system around the strengths of your players.

If your player is too injury prone to be available, you don’t build your system around them at all.

Fortunately, it doesn’t have to be set in stone that VDV is too injury prone. If they get it right this time, there’s every chance he’s fine and then it makes perfect sense to build your system around one of the biggest strengths in your entire squad.

 

[Richard Arlison]

because he's not back? and the news coming out is that he needs a scan?

Ange categorically stated there had been no set backs and he also has not re-injured himself. All the evidence presented says there, at the very least, has been some sort of setback.

You believe it's just VDV not fancying it still?

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Tbh I deleted that because I don’t know anymore than you do. Both of us just guessing.

I do think it’s possible that he’s still feeling tightness and they’ve got external second opinions to look at how he moves and build a more solid foundation to keep him back and pain free this time.

The idea that he’s having a new scan wouldn’t be a surprise to me either. I’d expect him to still be having scans to make sure everything is still injury clear

 

[Herclueless]

You build your system around the strengths of your players.

If your player is too injury prone to be available, you don’t build your system around them at all.

Fortunately, it doesn’t have to be set in stone that VDV is too injury prone. If they get it right this time, there’s every chance he’s fine and then it makes perfect sense to build your system around one of the biggest strengths in your entire squad.

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That's one side of it, you want a system that plays to their strengths, and minimises their weaknesses.

A system that requires a fast player to bail you out frequently by using their speed, isn't necessarily playing to that strength, just taking advantage of it.

We've no way of replacing VDV's speed when he's unavailable, which unfortunately has been quite frequently. In that sense, making his speed an integral part of the desired system, as opposed to a bonus only required from time to time, isn't ideal.

Whilst you can draw parallels to Walker in his time at City, they were so dominant across the whole field that I don't think he was called into action as frequently as VDV for us.

As for the second bolded part, no, not for me. There's no way it makes sense to make it a feature of your system that a cb should routinely be having to hare back towards his own goal in chase of an opposition attacker. It's too much strain on the player, and there's no guarantee that once he gets back he'll definitely snuff out the attack anyway, see Newcastle away last season for an example of him being put on his arse.

The high line risk vs reward for us simply does not provide enough reward, our attacking players aren't good enough or smart enough to consistently score enough to outweigh the goals we gift away.

 

[Confusius]

Van De Ven is booked to have a scan on Thursday, in London.

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Hi Ange!

 

[PointToPatrik]

On the topic of a player being rushed back or not. Surely that is individual and depends on the player in particular.

VDV has established hamstring issues now. That's probably going to require specific and special treatment for the rest of his career. I don't think that we are able to just say "Oh he trained for two full weeks. Time to play".

 

[Richard Arlison]

That's one side of it, you want a system that plays to their strengths, and minimises their weaknesses.

A system that requires a fast player to bail you out frequently by using their speed, isn't necessarily playing to that strength, just taking advantage of it.

We've no way of replacing VDV's speed when he's unavailable, which unfortunately has been quite frequently. In that sense, making his speed an integral part of the desired system, as opposed to a bonus only required from time to time, isn't ideal.

Whilst you can draw parallels to Walker in his time at City, they were so dominant across the whole field that I don't think he was called into action as frequently as VDV for us.

As for the second bolded part, no, not for me. There's no way it makes sense to make it a feature of your system that a cb should routinely be having to hare back towards his own goal in chase of an opposition attacker. It's too much strain on the player, and there's no guarantee that once he gets back he'll definitely snuff out the attack anyway, see Newcastle away last season for an example of him being put on his arse.

The high line risk vs reward for us simply does not provide enough reward, our attacking players aren't good enough or smart enough to consistently score enough to outweigh the goals we gift away.

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Danso gives us very similar pace.

Using VDVs recovery pace isn’t being bailed out, it’s building a system that gives you the ability to shrink the pitch vertically by pressing but also having a fail safe with the recovery pace of VDV, Spence, Danso and Udogie.

City did it with Walker

It’s just logical

 

[Herclueless]

Danso gives us very similar pace.

Using VDVs recovery pace isn’t being bailed out, it’s building a system that gives you the ability to shrink the pitch vertically by pressing but also having a fail safe with the recovery pace of VDV, Spence, Danso and Udogie.

City did it with Walker

It’s just logical

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All the others you mention are quick, not rapid like VDV. He is so frequently the one player making these sprints when he's available, that it's difficult to make the case that it's a sustainable tactic that can be achieved even when he's not there.

Shrinking the pitch is a whole other can of worms, because arguably that approach exposes the weaknesses of our forwards.

I agree with VDVs pace providing a fail safe, but it's not a fail safe when you're having to use it multiple times a game every game, it's just routine at that point.

 

[Ed Vanderlay]

On the topic of a player being rushed back or not. Surely that is individual and depends on the player in particular.

VDV has established hamstring issues now. That's probably going to require specific and special treatment for the rest of his career. I don't think that we are able to just say "Oh he trained for two full weeks. Time to play".

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We are cursed , Sol Campbell was looking a class centre back then pulled his turn into a cunt muscle. Ledley looking even better and his knees disintegrated like a pair of Mister Byrite trousers . Now VDV pulls hamstrings like Leonardo Di Caprio pulls super models.

We cannot catch a break, we need a system that plays without centre backs , admittedly seems like we are doing that at times anyway .

 

[Richard Arlison]

All the others you mention are quick, not rapid like VDV.

Shrinking the pitch is a whole other can of worms, because arguably that approach exposes the weaknesses of our forwards.

I agree with VDVs pace providing a fail safe, but it's not a fail safe when you're having to use it multiple times a game every game, it's just routine at that point.

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Wouldn’t be surprised if Spence was quicker than VDV. Danso and Udogie probably not. They are quicker than any CB at Villa who also play a high line.

Agree on the forwards and having to overuse the fall safe but that’s a bug in the system not the way it’s designed. Our forwards and MF should be keeping the ball better and using it better when we have teams boxed in.

In a weird way, Maddison, Solanke and even Odobert might be more important for VDVs ham strings long term than the system itself

 

[Herclueless]

Wouldn’t be surprised if Spence was quicker than VDV. Danso and Udogie probably not. They are quicker than any CB at Villa who also play a high line.

Agree on the forwards and having to overuse the fall safe but that’s a bug in the system not the way it’s designed. Our forwards and MF should be keeping the ball better and using it better when we have teams boxed in.

In a weird way, Maddison, Solanke and even Odobert might be more important for VDVs ham strings long term than the system itself

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I'm not against a high line, lot's of teams manage it without a player as fast as VDV, I just don't think we're very good at it...

 

[Richard Arlison]

I'm not against a high line, lot's of teams manage it without a player as fast as VDV, I just don't think we're very good at it...

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We don't really get caught on the high line tho. I don't think we've really been playing that high ... mainly because we didn't have the CBs to do it.

Our pressing structure or lack of one recently has been our big issue imo. That has been partly because we haven't been playing as high and there have been these huge issues between any attempt to press and then the sitting duck CBs because the FBs are up the pitch in the press. We had those issues before we lost the CBs but much less regularly.

 

[Herclueless]

We don't really get caught on the high line tho. I don't think we've really been playing that high ... mainly because we didn't have the CBs to do it.

Our pressing structure or lack of one recently has been our big issue imo. That has been partly because we haven't been playing as high and there have been these huge issues between any attempt to press and then the sitting duck CBs because the FBs are up the pitch in the press. We had those issues before we lost the CBs but much less regularly.

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I see opposition players running merrily into acres of space too frequently to feel as though whatever we are doing, we are doing well.

 

[Richard Arlison]

I see opposition players running merrily into acres of space too frequently to feel as though whatever we are doing, we are doing well.

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Vs Villa it was a joke.

Definitely had a bit more control vs UTD.

That did get in behind early first half but we seemed to figure that out a bit second half and there was definitely less open space between our press and the CBs

 

[Don Pedro]

because he's not back? and the news coming out is that he needs a scan?

Ange categorically stated there had been no set backs and he also has not re-injured himself. All the evidence presented says there, at the very least, has been some sort of setback.

You believe it's just VDV not fancying it still?

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I agree with you here. He's almost certainly re-injured. I thought that after he missed Brentford and that was over 2 weeks ago now. Not sure what the club stance is but they are claiming they are just taking their time with him which does sound suspect

 

[Kosher Kid]

I agree with you here. He's almost certainly re-injured. I thought that after he missed Brentford and that was over 2 weeks ago now. Not sure what the club stance is but they are claiming they are just taking their time with him which does sound suspect

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Weren't Liverpool interested in VDV at the time Spurs signed him?

I'm concerned tbh.

 

[Don Pedro]

Weren't Liverpool interested in VDV at the time Spurs signed him?

I'm concerned tbh.

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Yeah and still are if you listen to reports. He's a brilliant player but becoming way too injury prone to rely on. The likes of him and Richarlison just can't be relied on now going into next season. You just have to assume they'll miss majority of the games through injury and plan accordingly. We will prob sell Richarlison but if we are keeping VDV then we really need to make sure we've an able back up who is not injury prone!

 

[Shotgunofmichalebrow]

I agree with you here. He's almost certainly re-injured. I thought that after he missed Brentford and that was over 2 weeks ago now. Not sure what the club stance is but they are claiming they are just taking their time with him which does sound suspect

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He's injured but Ange knows his sand castle of its just bad luck and it will be clover when they all get fit...looks thinner than his comb over if...they constantly get re-injured. This is what the resembling is about, ego.