Now is not the time

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And there I completely differ.

You miss the point here we will have periods of failure, no club has had 30 years of constant shining success, not one. Our club has been great and it's been a failure over a log period of time, every team is the same. Try talking someone who has witnessed us being relegated, funnily enough they will also recount the promotion season as being quite special.

Consider this, you're a City fan, the day they returned to the Prem from 1st division, is still probably their most prized memory. One of my most prized was the Crouch goal against City when we got our first run at the Premier League, are these moments meant to mean nothing just because they don't equate to a trophy of note?

The difference is that even now you can't acknowledge success, you can't see that the direction of travel is right. You hyper focus on silverware, you believe we should all be angry at not having silverware, I find it a bit joyless.

The real problem with your outlook is I can't see how you can be happy and support Spurs with that way of thinking, I'd be driven mad if I agreed with your line of thought because, really, nothing the club could do would ever really be enough and even if you were angry and upset about the lack of silverware, the truth is that you have no real effect on what decisions the club makes.

The time isn't now, it doesn't have to be because we're all going to be watching Spurs for a very long time, make of it what you will, I hope it's not as unhappy for you as you make it sound.

I started following us in ‘92 so I don’t really need to talk with someone about other failed eras. Again that was then this is now - it’s pointless to continually reference failed periods more so when they were decades ago. Seriously move on and focus on what we have now and make the absolute most it whilst it is here.

Speak to any City supporter and they will tell you their most prized memory is Aguero scoring in the 93rd minute to win the league beating their rivals in the process.

Success in competitive sport - whether it is football, tennis, Rugby success is defined by silverware, that is thee definitive outcome and terms of measurement. Now you may wish alter the definition of that - the game doesn’t and never will. Does that mean we cannot enjoy other times and moments - no it doesn’t but I will always want ( and expect when we have a team of this standing) to challenge and win silverware. That’s the clubs history and tradition and it’s our jobs as supporters to uphold that.

I suspect you are another one of those ‘90s’ supporters who is endlessly marooned in that failed time. And I get it - how can you ever be disappointed when your reference point is that era - even a modicum of success will be magnified when that is the basis of comparison.
 
make the absolute most it whilst it is here.

I agree and that's exactly why I have enjoyed Spurs so much over the last few seasons and also understand, that it's not all one way, you think we'll always be a Champions League team?

Speak to any City supporter and they will tell you their most prized memory is Aguero scoring in the 93rd minute to win the league beating their rivals in the process.

I think that's an interesting one, contrast the 2 occasions, City were a normal team when they came back, their fans cried at the relegations to the Championship and League One, they made it back to the promised land or the moment they won a league they should have because they had the most money of any club. One moment alleviated real years of hardship and the other just met a basic expectation, bearing in mind that Aguero moment never happens if they don't return to the prem in the first place.

Without history, you don't have context, without failure you don't appreciate success for what it is and with a lack of understanding of all of this where you breed a sense of false entitlement, watch a few clips of AFTV and you'll see the toxicity it can create.
 
I agree and that's exactly why I have enjoyed Spurs so much over the last few seasons and also understand, that it's not all one way, you think we'll always be a Champions League team?

No is I don’t but I also do not try convince myself that CL participation will elevate us to a level that it simply cannot. One of the primary issues is this obsession with CL football - when the main objective becomes securing additional revenues is it any wonder that doesn’t win anything?

I think that's an interesting one, contrast the 2 occasions, City were a normal team when they came back, their fans cried at the relegations to the Championship and League One, they made it back to the promised land or the moment they won a league they should have because they had the most money of any club. One moment alleviated real years of hardship and the other just met a basic expectation, bearing in mind that Aguero moment never happens if they don't return to the prem in the first place.

They gained promotion 20 years ago - do you think our supporter bases were concerned by our relegation in the ‘70s when we won silverware in the ‘80s? Again you are marooned in another decade - in another time and team. Had we won the league in the last couple of years I wouldn’t have felt the need to reference the ‘90s because what would the point of that be? Are you trying to tell me winning the league would mean more to a supporter who had experienced the 90s than one who grew up in the 00s? I don’t believe that for one second. And again you are being highly selective with the time frames - the point of reference is alway a troubled time. You do this because it’s avoids disappointment - because it is the easy way out. Using failed eras as the reference point will always result in achievement - but achievements that no one outside of the supporter base respects.

Without history, you don't have context, without failure you don't appreciate success for what it is and with a lack of understanding of all of this where you breed a sense of false entitlement, watch a few clips of AFTV and you'll see the toxicity it can create.

A false sense of entitlement? Are you serious? Expectations should be set on the players that we have and we have had one of the most talented teams in the league for the last 5 seasons. What is false is your position because it disregards this and instead centres of historic failures. We could have the 70s Brazil team playing for us and yet the supporter base would claim that we shouldn’t have the expectation of trophies whilst endlessly elevating league placings and semi final finishes. There is a compete disconnect between the talent we have and the expectations that supporters have for this team. In truth you don’t believe we deserve our place with the best.
 
No is I don’t but I also do not try convince myself that CL participation will elevate us to a level that it simply cannot. One of the primary issues is this obsession with CL football - when the main objective becomes securing additional revenues is it any wonder that doesn’t win anything?

I agree that obsessing over CL participation isn't the 'be all and end all' but it's enjoyable to be there, even you must have enjoyed the run this season, I mean the final was poor but the City & Ajax games were classics, surely even taking the money element out it can only be good for the club to pit itself against the best teams in Europe, if we're to improve playing against strong opposition can only help, surely you have to accept that premise?

They gained promotion 20 years ago - do you think our supporter bases were concerned by our relegation in the ‘70s when we won silverware in the ‘80s? Again you are marooned in another decade - in another time and team. Had we won the league in the last couple of years I wouldn’t have felt the need to reference the ‘90s because what would the point of that be? Are you trying to tell me winning the league would mean more to a supporter who had experienced the 90s than one who grew up in the 00s? I don’t believe that for one second. And again you are being highly selective with the time frames - the point of reference is alway a troubled time. You do this because it’s avoids disappointment - because it is the easy way out. Using failed eras as the reference point will always result in achievement - but achievements that no one outside of the supporter base respects.

You're being selective here not me, if you think that in 81' there were no fans who witnessed our relegation in '77 then I'm struggling to see your point. You're trying to create an idea that no period of success relates to a period of failure, you're doing it to fit the narrative of your argument, that people only think of success and not the journey up to that point. My point is that to succeed you have to fail otherwise you don't get to understand the value of it.

I am trying to say that the longer you support a team the more you know it and as time goes by you know how to contextualise your experience of it. It's not true of everyone and I'm pretty sure it's not true about you but that's just seems like common sense to me. The longer you live, the more you know yourself, your faults, your strengths, how you react to success, how you deal with things when they get you down. Very few people say that time has no effect upon them.

Let's take your argument that my outlook avoids disappointment, is that a bad a thing? Should I be hurt and angry if we don't perform? Should I call out every player, the manager and board on social media? Maybe go home and make some placards to stand outside the ground with? Is that a rational or better way to deal with things? We clearly see things very differently.

A false sense of entitlement? Are you serious? Expectations should be set on the players that we have and we have had one of the most talented teams in the league for the last 5 seasons. What is false is your position because it disregards this and instead centres of historic failures. We could have the 70s Brazil team playing for us and yet the supporter base would claim that we shouldn’t have the expectation of trophies whilst endlessly elevating league placings and semi final finishes. There is a compete disconnect between the talent we have and the expectations that supporters have for this team. In truth you don’t believe we deserve our place with the best.

And this is the killer, as you're not a fan of harking back to long lost eras, let's take last season. That season only one team won any domestic titles, no one else. I can't decry our team for not being Man City and essentially that's what you're expecting the fan base to do.

We have a talented squad, some immense players, a great manager, fantastic set up, I am delighted with what we have and I think we have potential to improve. We don't however have the firepower to spend a billion pounds on our squad and I'm not going to get angry with our club our supporters for that fact of life. Because to do so is basically the false entitlement that I'm alluding to.

It's been fun discussing this Hood but I think the only thing we're going to agree upon is we're not going to agree.
 

ChrissyWaddleShares

Bringing the mullet back to N17
I think it’s safe to say there are (at least) two viewpoints: those who see success as silverware, and those who see success as progress. For me, success is progress, consistently competing at the top level, being able to go into games against the most expensive sides assembled in footballing history with a genuine expectation that we might just be able to win, and then win again. Yes, it would be awesome to win some trophies, but only one team can win every one each year. Would we genuinely say that, over the course of the season, we were more consistent than City (of course not); better than Liverpool? No.

We no longer have the horrific capitulations that cost the jobs of so many managers before Poch - that IS progress.

Use Hood’s analogy of Lendl and Henman from earlier - all the experts, those who genuinely know, who have played the game, watched the game, know the ins-and-outs of the game, they see Poch as a Lendl, not a Henman - trophies will come, given time and resources. That’s where we are and I’m 100% sure that’s where we’re going.

COYS
 

Airfixx

Trusting the process.
I agree that obsessing over CL participation isn't the 'be all and end all' but it's enjoyable to be there, even you must have enjoyed the run this season, I mean the final was poor but the City & Ajax games were classics, surely even taking the money element out it can only be good for the club to pit itself against the best teams in Europe, if we're to improve playing against strong opposition can only help, surely you have to accept that premise?



You're being selective here not me, if you think that in 81' there were no fans who witnessed our relegation in '77 then I'm struggling to see your point. You're trying to create an idea that no period of success relates to a period of failure, you're doing it to fit the narrative of your argument, that people only think of success and not the journey up to that point. My point is that to succeed you have to fail otherwise you don't get to understand the value of it.

I am trying to say that the longer you support a team the more you know it and as time goes by you know how to contextualise your experience of it. It's not true of everyone and I'm pretty sure it's not true about you but that's just seems like common sense to me. The longer you live, the more you know yourself, your faults, your strengths, how you react to success, how you deal with things when they get you down. Very few people say that time has no effect upon them.

Let's take your argument that my outlook avoids disappointment, is that a bad a thing? Should I be hurt and angry if we don't perform? Should I call out every player, the manager and board on social media? Maybe go home and make some placards to stand outside the ground with? Is that a rational or better way to deal with things? We clearly see things very differently.



And this is the killer, as you're not a fan of harking back to long lost eras, let's take last season. That season only one team won any domestic titles, no one else. I can't decry our team for not being Man City and essentially that's what you're expecting the fan base to do.

We have a talented squad, some immense players, a great manager, fantastic set up, I am delighted with what we have and I think we have potential to improve. We don't however have the firepower to spend a billion pounds on our squad and I'm not going to get angry with our club our supporters for that fact of life. Because to do so is basically the false entitlement that I'm alluding to.

It's been fun discussing this Hood but I think the only thing we're going to agree upon is we're not going to agree.

Fucking Bravo!
 
Use Hood’s analogy of Lendl and Henman from earlier - all the experts, those who genuinely know, who have played the game, watched the game, know the ins-and-outs of the game, they see Poch as a Lendl, not a Henman - trophies will come, given time and resources. That’s where we are and I’m 100% sure that’s where we’re going.

COYS

Are these the same experts that said that David Moyes was a high level manager and was an appropriate chose to take over Ferguson? I guess I was wrong for opposing that view of these ‘experts’

Let’s deal with the facts - Pochettino has been our manager for five seasons. In that time he has had one the best teams in the league ( the cumulative points total and the value of the squad demonstrate that) and he has zero trophies to his name.

He is 47, by that age the games elite managers had all won multiple silverware. Like players managers have their lifespan - most go into decline into their ‘50s.

I find the suggestion that the longest serving PL manager needs more time absolutely laughable. As is the question of resources - he had a team of Kane, Eriksen, Ali, Son, Alderweirld, Dembele, Lloris to name a few available to him.

I have been told that that the stadium and finances have been a hindrance. Fine but it isn’t any more - the stadium is finished and we have just spent £65 million on one of the best young players in Europe.

When exactly should we start expecting him to deliver silverware? In 5 years time, 10’years?
 
When exactly should we start expecting him to deliver silverware? In 5 years time, 10’years?
It happens when it happens and I'm going to fucking love it when it does...meanwhile I'm going to enjoy being a Spurs fan regardless...besides that, being a Spurs fan and having expectations has always been a hazardous journey, usually ending in disappointment...
 
It happens when it happens and I'm going to fucking love it when it does...meanwhile I'm going to enjoy being a Spurs fan regardless...besides that, being a Spurs fan and having expectations has always been a hazardous journey, usually ending in disappointment...


But it’s not happening though is it? And when the club is on its longest drought since the 30s questions should be asked and they are simply not being.

Taking the ‘oh well/ let it be’ approach does nothing to aid the situation. The supporter base should be applying pressure for this - rather that railing against it ( just look at the reaction to me and the media when I/they state that this team need to win a trophy.

It’s an extremely unhealthy position for a club to find itself in when it has this level of talent, has gone this period of time without a trophy and the majority of the supporter base is completely passive to this.
 

ChrissyWaddleShares

Bringing the mullet back to N17
Are these the same experts that said that David Moyes was a high level manager and was an appropriate chose to take over Ferguson? I guess I was wrong for opposing that view of these ‘experts’

Let’s deal with the facts - Pochettino has been our manager for five seasons. In that time he has had one the best teams in the league ( the cumulative points total and the value of the squad demonstrate that) and he has zero trophies to his name.

He is 47, by that age the games elite managers had all won multiple silverware. Like players managers have their lifespan - most go into decline into their ‘50s.

I find the suggestion that the longest serving PL manager needs more time absolutely laughable. As is the question of resources - he had a team of Kane, Eriksen, Ali, Son, Alderweirld, Dembele, Lloris to name a few available to him.

I have been told that that the stadium and finances have been a hindrance. Fine but it isn’t any more - the stadium is finished and we have just spent £65 million on one of the best young players in Europe.

When exactly should we start expecting him to deliver silverware? In 5 years time, 10’years?
We’re progressing: I’ll start complaining when there’s no evidence of progress. This season was nearly unwatchable at times, but it could be worse - we could be Woolwich or Man U - sleepwalking into a shadow of what we once were.

Unlike lots of other posters, I do agree with the sentiment, and share some of your frustrations, but I see enough (and this season the CL final - flukey though it was - WAS just enough) of a forward trajectory. Like yourself, I worry about us being caught or overtaken, but we have just invested, it looks like the stadium and higher profile are going to pay off and, we’ll, it’s better than I’ve ever known it (nearly 40 years).

Two more years of ‘nearlys’ or a catastrophic season and I’ll be reevaluating!
 
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It’s an extremely unhealthy position for a club to find itself in when it has this level of talent, has gone this period of time without a trophy and the majority of the supporter base is completely passive to this.

Seriously, what do you want us to be doing, I mean, do you want our fans to be like this prick?

 
Seriously, what do you want us to be doing, I mean, do you want our fans to be like this prick?



I can’t watch the video but If we had an owner like Kroenke then I would expect the supporter base to speak out. I take it you wouldn’t then?

Again this is about us and the mentality of our supporter base. It’s about the absolute refusal to place any sort of expectations of this side, the refusal to hold the clubs manager to any account. It’s about the open derision of trophies that have defined this football club like the UEFA cup, FA cup and league cup.
 
We’re progressing: I’ll start complaining when there’s no evidence of progress. This season was nearly unwatchable at times, but it could be worse - we could be Woolwich or Man U - sleepwalking into a shadow of what we once were.

Unlike lots of other posters, I do agree with the sentiment, and share some of your frustrations, but I see enough (and this season the CL final - flukey though it was - WAS just enough) of a forward trajectory. Like yourself, I worry about us being caught or overtaken, but we have just invested, it looks like the stadium and higher profile are going to pay off and, we’ll, it’s better than I’ve ever known it (nearly 40 years).

Two more years of ‘nearlys’ or a catastrophic season and I’ll be reevaluating!


We’re progressing to what exactly? Teams occur in cycles - we’ve seen the best of this current team and we are starting the process of a rebuild. As I said before the issue is with the supporter base being fixed in a failed past or living in a glorious future - it’s never about there here and now. I really couldn’t care less about Woolwich and United - again it focusing on the failure of another ( team rather than time) and not focusing on what are we doing.
 

rutlandspur

Supporter
We’re progressing: I’ll start complaining when there’s no evidence of progress. This season was nearly unwatchable at times, but it could be worse - we could be Woolwich or Man U - sleepwalking into a shadow of what we once were.

Unlike lots of other posters, I do agree with the sentiment, and share some of your frustrations, but I see enough (and this season the CL final - flukey though it was - WAS just enough) of a forward trajectory. Like yourself, I worry about us being caught or overtaken, but we have just invested, it looks like the stadium and higher profile are going to pay off and, we’ll, it’s better than I’ve ever known it (nearly 40 years).

Two more years of ‘nearlys’ or a catastrophic season and I’ll be reevaluating!

I know we've been through this a hundred times......

But then what mate? when you're-evaluate' your support after a poor season or two?
Either you:
  • continue to support the club, through thick and thin, come what may - what some people call 'happy clappers', or
  • moan about your club all the fucking time because they are 'disappointing' you and, after all, the world revolves around your feelings, or
  • decide to support another club that wins pretty silver cups, because that's what makes you happy.
Oh, and let's not deliberately confuse 'steadfast support' with 'lack of ambition'.

You'll have guessed where I am on the spectrum and this is uncomfortable, because the implication is that 'we' think we are 'better supporters' than 'them', which naturally causes resentment amongst our broad church - but I can't se any other logical inference.
 

Airfixx

Trusting the process.
Seriously, what do you want us to be doing, I mean, do you want our fans to be like this prick?


Hoody and a few others here already are our version of those goon muppets... They're just too self absorbed in projecting themselves as having a 'woke' perception and higher understanding of the game to see it.

We could win an EPL & CL double and the first subsequent season we don't win another major they'll be back on the war path..... As much as they'd deny this, it's clear as feckin' day.
 
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Airfixx

Trusting the process.
I can’t watch the video but If we had an owner like Kroenke then I would expect the supporter base to speak out. I take it you wouldn’t then?

Again this is about us and the mentality of our supporter base. It’s about the absolute refusal to place any sort of expectations of this side, the refusal to hold the clubs manager to any account. It’s about the open derision of trophies that have defined this football club like the UEFA cup, FA cup and league cup.

So where's your #PochOut banner been you fucking hypocrite?

Similarly, I can fucking bet you weren't on the street protesting the idea of moving to Stratford were you?

As long as you're spreading your gospel of doom on an internet forum, your 'righteous' work is done, isn't it.


You're a cancer, you joyless motherfucker!
 

ChrissyWaddleShares

Bringing the mullet back to N17
I can’t watch the video but If we had an owner like Kroenke then I would expect the supporter base to speak out. I take it you wouldn’t then?

Again this is about us and the mentality of our supporter base. It’s about the absolute refusal to place any sort of expectations of this side, the refusal to hold the clubs manager to any account. It’s about the open derision of trophies that have defined this football club like the UEFA cup, FA cup and league cup.
I know I’m new here, but I’d love a trophy - who wouldn’t but - and this is the kicker - for the long term health of the club that we all love, the truth (at this present time) is that the CL qualification is much more valuable to our longevity than any single piece of silverware. And, I guess, when it comes down to ‘3 points at Brighton on Saturday’ vs ‘best team out in Rd 3 League Cup on Wednesday’, those three points could be worth nearly a hundred million pounds, as they were last season with our run to the final.

Is the alternative the Mourinho model - win some trophies, but leave the club disintegrating? We can’t compare with City because of the money, nor any of the other ‘top’ teams. Compare to Atletico - similar position in terms of ‘big boys’ - the increase in PL vs La Liga is negated as different leagues and cups and, then, we’re about right: challenging, competing, getting close. We’re Atletico, not Real, we’re Dortmund, not Bayern (dodgy example, but you get the sentiment)...it’s just where we are in the pecking order at the moment. Frustrating, but true.
 
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