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Roberto Soldado

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I've touched on this in the Chelsea game thread. I'm OK with giving him time but on what I've seen so far, he's not the ruthless finisher I was expecting. But I more than happy if he makes me eat my words, coz all I want is what's best for the team.
 
Tbh, in the post Berba-Keane era no striker has really succeeded here except for Adebayor for one season. I think a great deal of that lies more in the way we play than anything else - none of Crouch, Defoe, Pav, Bent, Saha are true lone strikers, and our most prolific "goalscorers" in the past few seasons in VdV, Bale, Dempsey are deep-lying players.

Soldado can and does lead the line, but like many strikers he is best spearheading rapid, fluid counters. He is not about to dribble through five defenders and score on his own - and I think very few strikers can, outside RvP and Rooney and Suarez. The true lone strikers in Lukaku and Benteke are doing very well atm, but I still think it's up in the air how well they would do if they weren't playing in teams that tend to get a lot of space on the counter. The strikers in the top teams *must*, and I mean MUST, have perfect touch and control and a ridiculously sharp turn, because space is at a premium for them. Strikers in lower teams are allowed a bit of looseness.

The thing is, this season we are probably the *least* counterattacking of the top six. We pressure them all the way back into their own third, but that means we tend to face amassed ranks that constrict our own space to create chances. So it's not surprising Soldado is kinda snatching at half-chances atm, because it's not like he's getting one-on-ones or tap-in opportunities that just need clever runs to finish off, and he's not beastly in the air like Negredo and Lukaku. He has great technique on the ground, but he is not a natural 'tight spaces' flair striker. Let me point out that even Suarez had only 11 goals in his first season at Liverpool, when they had very similar stats to us right now - compressed spaces where the main goal is to dominate territory in their third, very few shots conceded, shitloads of shots in total but in truth few clear-cut chances created.

Imo, this is because our high-press style is very difficult to execute, requiring incredible levels of understanding and "fluency" within the team - a combination of both natural intelligence and technique in your players, but also coaching. Everyone needs to be on the same wavelength, and that's not easy to do when you are trying to bed in so many new players. The upside is that the reward is potentially huge, and I do believe that as the season goes on the fluidity of our attack will improve more and more, we'll move the ball faster and faster and we'll start creating clearer chances even in these little tippy-tappy spaces.

Soldado may not be innately familiar with our style atm, but from what I've seen he has the fundamentals to make this work - a crisp touch, quick reactions, good awareness (assists, yay), intelligent movement, and a predisposition for one-touch plays, which is really critical when you have no space and time. The only weakness is really aerial, but that's what Paulinho and Chadli are here for.

It will take time to develop that chemistry though, so I don't think he'll really get off the mark until Spring - just not sure if the fans will give him that time though :( So I'm actually really hopeful that Ade can come back into the fold soon, because I think his natural link-up talent would help him fit in faster with Eriken, Lamela and co. without as much coaching. But that means we're depending on Ade, and that's probably never a good thing.
 
Oh FFS said:
I'm not on his nuts - but I guess the point I am trying to make is coming across as "get this useless cunt out of our club" to most people on here.for some reason - which is stupid. I am trying to have a reasonable discussion but - well, fuck it, whatever, I just won't contribute to this thread anymore.

For the record - a 28 year old striker signed for a record fee needed to hit the ground running and I am disappointed that he hasn't. I'll judge him PRIMARILY on his goal tally for us, because he's a striker and that's why we bought him - to score goals. I have not written him off yet by any stretch of things.
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Just to show some support. Yes, bought in as a striker- should be scoring goals. Yes, his interplay is very good. Yes, judge him in time. Yes, he will come good. Yes, in part you are right- just to early. Buy a keeper you would him to save shots?
 
And FWIW, I completely understand that people want a 28-year-old, 26m pound striker to hit the ground running. He is already mature as a player, not a developing prospect. But I also believe that our *style* is not yet mature, and it's not one that he is experienced with ... so, strangely enough, I think he was actually bought on his potential to fit into our long-term vision, rather than as a proven goalscorer who will score goals no matter what we do. And that goes for all of our new signings.

My reasoning is this - let's say that we want to use Dortmund as a template, which means a high line, compressed spaces, domination of territory in the final third, high pressing in packs and in bursts, and very rapid transitions that move vertically up the pitch as fast as possible. We look to force turnovers as close to their goal as possible, since that gives them the least time to regroup. We compress midfield as a defensive strategy, keeping them away from the ball and from developing any kind of passing rhythm; OTOH, the few times they do breach our line, it tends to be a one-on-one chance.

In this context, the sine qua non for our ideal striker must be their ability in tight spaces - things like incredible touch, close control, reflexes and awareness (rebounds and sudden turnovers are big), and how much time/space they need to get off a shot. Pace is not as crucial as acceleration. You can't really run with the ball, you can't take more than one touch to control it (in fact it'd be best if you can volley it). You can be a poaching type, but you can't linger on the edge of the box waiting for the flick-on or knock-down because you're not playing with a strike partner; you need to cleverly nip inside to touch-in the throughball or the "around the corner" passes that Eriksen likes.

Our other option besides this 'hyper-technical, tight-spaces striker' is the aerially dominant "beast" striker, who can just batter down these defenses and provide flick-ons to onrushing runners, which is what Benteke is doing so well at Villa right now. The problem here is that we don't really have great crossers, and lofted crosses are exactly what shitty deep defenses love anyways since they just camp in the center and keep heading these bad boys out. We're also probably not going to get much change with flick-ons to pacy runners since we're not going to be getting that kind of space in most games, not through the center.

So... if we're not really going to get many counter opportunities and we don't want to go Drogba, we're mainly going to be playing on the ground, trying to create chaos in their third while enforcing "tranquility" in our half (in fact, my pet theory is that is why AVB has never minded one selfish attacker who shoots a lot a la Hulk, Bale, Dempsey, Townsend etc ... Klopp himself encourages a kind of fearlessness in his attackers since he thinks of losing the ball as an opportunity to press again and get it back in the attacking third). That means we want technical, clever, mobile nines who do really well on the ground and are used to high-pressure possession football, and that's probably why we targeted Villa first.

Villa didn't work out, but I think/hope Soldado's qualities give him the potential to fit our ideal attack, even if he's much more used to playing on the fast break. He may not be a superstriker who creates his own spectacular goals, but he is very much a one-touch, on-the-ground player with quick reactions and an eye for the volley. Defoe is in fine form, but he really prefers to hang around on the edge of the box to shoot, which would leave the only player we have willing to burst in there Paulinho.

The other really interesting option is Adebayor on top form, because as our most possession-oriented, creative striker you'd think he'd be a natural for developing chemistry with intelligent AMs like Eriksen, Lamela, Siggy etc. His link up in small spaces would be very useful imo, my only worry there is that Eriksen and Lamela/Townsend are nowhere near as prolific as VdV and Bale, which puts a lot more goalscoring onus on our striker .... and clinical, Ade ain't, unfortunately.

SO... the whole purpose of this long ramble is to say I think that's why we're focusing so much on creating a "constellation" around Soldado as our attack; note that Paulinho's interview said that in training we're working on moving the ball at dizzying speed *around* him, not behind him. If we were playing on the counter he'd be in front, or slightly deeper if it were like Ade flicking to Bale, but we're going to be camped in their third so Soldado is going to be at the center of a lot of different plays, all in motion at once like clockwork. I think it's going to be brilliant if we can pull this off, it's just going to be difficult and grueling to get there and Soldado won't be getting that many great chances just yet.
 
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Unfair to slate him when he hasnt exactly had a lot of chances due to the system we play. If he'd scored the last three rather than Sigs would we all be saying he's brilliant, yet Sigs is crap and should be dropped? :bentley:

Hes creating things and the ball is sticking to him when it goes up front, goals are being shared out amongst the midfield, IMO hes doing what hes being asked to do in this formation. Id be more worried if he was getting loads of clear chances and fluffing them
 
@ skyfarer skyfarer has nailed it. Soldado's goals for Valencia came from great runs off the shoulder of the defender because his one-on-one finishing is incredible. Whilst he's still a great striker, he's not getting any space at the moment and a lot of our chances are long-range shots from the edge of the area, where you wouldn't expect him to be. His runs are always being made, regardless of whether the other players feed it in to him and I don't think he's been poor for us so far. His first touch is exceptional, nearly all of his shots have been on target, and there's no chances that I can remember where I thought "how has he not scored there?"
 
Oh FFS said:
Dude, you seem to have completely missed my point, which is that - at age 28 and a (then) club record £26m fee we needed him to hit the ground running - its a massive investment for us and we need a number 9 who can put the ball away regularly. Soldado is at the peak of his career now so to get value for money from him we need goals. Thats why we signed him.

And I am not writing him off either - and yes I am judging him on what I have seen so far - what else should I judge him on? Why is this not allowed?
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The season is 38 games long, and many more if you figure in cup competitions - there is plenty of time for him to find his feet. Not every player can perform to their potential as soon as they move to a new side, and it's not like Soldado has been performing terribly!

Be patient.
 
AberdeenYid said:
Is suggest it's neither valid nor reasonable to be questioning the performance of someone who has played about half a dozen games for us. It's another example of the "I WANT EVERYTHING NOW" attitude that people seem to have these days.

I remember watching Jason fucking Dozzell and there's questions about Soldado? I don't even understand how that could happen.
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I didn't read it that way - I read it as he's employed to score - why isn't he?
I think its a valid question, and it has more to do with the team set up - than any question mark about Soldado's pedigree.
I also believe that when he breaks the seal - the floodgates will open, moreso if the team starts to feed him the bullets to fire.
 
Our little Ossie Ardiles once said (this Summer) that our Bobby Soldier is like Luis Suarez (well, in terms of ability).

His antics aside, Suarez is a class act, no doubt. Liverpool bought him for about 23 million pounds.
During his first half season at Liverpool, he scored only 4 PL goals. In his first full season he then scored 11 PL goals. Last season he scored 23 PL goals.

Yes, there's a difference in age and being at their peak, etc. .... but, the point is that ...
Many great players need time to fit in.

:ossie:
 
I feel as a side we are still quite fragile, as it can go either way for us. Supporters opinions that fair on the side of -asking questions of players? are frowned upon because as a club, we need to stay positive. Supporters are protecting this vulnerability and rightly so.
We need to loose this impatience because it can be damaging.
I agree with all above and I am willing to give the whole side time, as we all should. if Soldado is not up for it then we sell and buy another forward, isn't that what football is all about these days?
I honestly believe he will step up to the mark and be (is) a good player and will be (is) part of a successful THFC.

Just want to add-I feel as though we lost on Saturday-thats how far we have come. We out played for 45 mins one of the best teams in Europe,
 
I find it ridiculous that some fans are questioning Soldado’s ability after only a few games, considering he’s not had much service, with the scraps he’s been feeding off he’s generally got his shot off and on target during a tight situation. If he’d had time to shoot I suspect they would be into the back of the net. If he’d have been in the same position as Defoe on Saturday, I doubt he’d have tamely hit that shot along the ground to Cech. He needs service and with our team still a work in progress, I am sure the understanding with Eriksen, Holtby, Siggy, Chadli, Lamela and Townsend will come and he will be banging them in. He’s scored two penalties which lets face it when we’ve been presented with them in the dim and distant past we’ve been very hit and miss.

Give the guy a chance I am convinced he’s more VDV than Rebrov with regards to his movement and finishing skills.
 
Colonel_K said:
I find it ridiculous that some fans are questioning Soldado’s ability after only a few games, considering he’s not had much service, with the scraps he’s been feeding off he’s generally got his shot off and on target during a tight situation. If he’d had time to shoot I suspect they would be into the back of the net. If he’d have been in the same position as Defoe on Saturday, I doubt he’d have tamely hit that shot along the ground to Cech. He needs service and with our team still a work in progress, I am sure the understanding with Eriksen, Holtby, Siggy, Chadli, Lamela and Townsend will come and he will be banging them in. He’s scored two penalties which lets face it when we’ve been presented with them in the dim and distant past we’ve been very hit and miss.

Give the guy a chance I am convinced he’s more VDV than Rebrov with regards to his movement and finishing skills.
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He'd have blasted it straight at him instead? Like he does.

Fact is he didnt manage to work himself into any similar position did he. Still cant question him as that means you think he's shit and want every member of his immediate family shot.
 
Eskimo said:
He'd have blasted it straight at him instead? Like he does.

Fact is he didnt manage to work himself into any similar position did he. Still cant question him as that means you think he's shit and want every member of his immediate family shot.
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Well that is a load of bollocks, as I didn't say Defoe was shit did I? I just questioned the type of shot played for that moment. I have a lot of time for Defoe as a player, but even I recognise the fact that he's not good enough to be our headline striker, he's far too selfish and too willing to go for the scatter gun approach to shooting. If he was playing for a midtable side, he'd be their star player. However for a side like us that has aspirations of a title challenge, depending on Jermain isn't going to be good enough.

As for wishing someones family members to be shot, get a grip we're talking about football here not some other attrocious situtation.
 
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The only problem I see with Soldado is that he hits the fecking ball too sweet, if he shanked one slightly it'd probably end up top bin rather than down the goalies throat.
 
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