• The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...

    Get involved!

Scoring too soon

Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports

Last week, a different podcast spent a few minutes complaining that often Spurs get their first goal "too soon", thereby mussing up their chances of getting victories. Part of the reasoning is that the team lets up a bit, allowing the opponent to get back into the match. They snatch a goal, and then Spurs have to go back to work to salvage the three points.

Luckily, this is testable. So I've taken every PL match this year where Spurs scored a goal (we can name off the top of our head which matches don't meet this criteria) and noted when the first goal came, what the change was to the result at the time (did we pull ahead? Did we get an equaliser? Did nothing change since we were that far behind already?), the final result, and whether the first goal scored by Spurs "sealed" the tie—that is, we shut out the opposition, or it ended 1–1, with our goal's guaranteeing the draw.

I then also chose 10 PL matches at random from both Chelsea and Woolwich, our nearest competitors, where they score. I compiled the statistics for those matches as well, to give a kind of baseline for comparison. So when I mention, below, Woolwich and Chelsea statistics, remember that they are based on a random sample, and not on the population as a whole.

On another statistical note, please remember that a lot of the differences may seem significant, but could, actually, still be within the realm of random fluctuation.

First, Spurs' first goal comes, on average, in the 41st minute. This is interesting because after the first ten matches, we'd only scored in the first half three times. In the meantime, we've started scoring earlier, to bring that average down. Woolwich, on the other hand, score their first goal, on average, in the 35th minute. Chelsea in the 29th. Both clubs have also scored more goals than we (I think), which can account for that timeframe coming down a bit. So we don't seem like we're particularly eager to score early.

On the other hand, Spurs scored first in 20 of 28 matches where we do score. Assuming who scores is random, 71% is already well into the realm of statistical significance (a coin will come up heads 20 (or more) out of 18 times only 1.7% of the time). So we can say that Spurs are good at scoring first, even if it's not early. Both Woolwich and Chelsea are in the 70% range as well, but because each sample is smaller, the probabilities are higher (17% vs. 1.7%).

This makes perfect sense. These are elite teams. Elite teams get wins, and part of getting a win is scoring first. Spurs won 14 of 20 matches after scoring first (three draws and three losses), which is a 70% win rate, compared to 53% win rate over the season as a whole. Woolwich and Chelsea, on the other hand, won only 50% of the matches where they scored first. This suggests that Spurs are good at scoring first and subsequently grinding out the win, even if it's usually of the 2–1 variety (only four times has that first goal been enough—25% of victories).

So on the whole, nothing wrong seems to come from scoring first.

But scoring "first" is not the same as scoring "early". And Sunday is a good example of "typical Spurs" in the mind of some podcasters: we get a goal, but it's too early, and, subsequently, throw points away, settling for the draw instead of the win.

Let's split up the game into quintiles (18 minute chunks). Spurs have scored their first goal nine times in the first 18 minutes, twice in the second 18, five times in the third 18, and six times in both the fourth and fifth 18. It's interesting that lack of initial scoring in the second 18 (between the 18th and 36th minutes). Either we score early or late. That second chunk, though…

Anyway, what ends up being the result depending on when we score our first goal?

I2FO5kv.png


Looks like that other podcast is full of shit. When Spurs score in the first 18 minutes of a match, they win almost 80% of the time! So much for scoring "too early". How does it compare to the Woolwich and Chelsea samples?

qpkdn9B.png


As you'd expect, the likelihood of a loss or draw gets greater the later we get our first goal, though Woolwich and Chelsea are better at pulling together wins in the final quintile than we are. On the other hand, we're more or less better at winning when we score early. Anyway, the graphs speak for themselves.

What about when Spurs score first and early? The sample size actually doesn't change much. Only once have we scored in the first 18 when we were already trailing the game (Reading at home). For Chelsea and Woolwich, it's no times.

Again, then, there's no indication that scoring "too soon" has anything but a great effect on our league results. And the same is true for our competitors. Bring on the early goals, then. Panic when we're having trouble finding the net in the final 18 minutes…

As a final note, and an avenue for further investigation, in the Chelsea and Woolwich sample, 30% of the time that first goal "seals" the tie… as in either they shut out the other side or they get an equalised in a 1–1 draw. Spurs' have only "sealed" the tie with the first goal in six of 28 matches (21%). So our issue is that we're giving up more goals than our nearby competitors… not that we're scoring too soon. And that was the case against Everton. We let them score twice, which was a far greater crime than enjoying Adebayor's moment in the sun in the first minute!
 
Good effort with the stats - much appreciated.

From a non-statistical stand point I always feel our style of play means we need to score early as we're a lot better picking off team who attack us (which they invariably have to if they're a goal down to us)
 
Good effort with the stats - much appreciated.

From a non-statistical stand point I always feel our style of play means we need to score early as we're a lot better picking off team who attack us (which they invariably have to if they're a goal down to us)

I agree with that when Walker, Lennon and Bale are all in our squad and performing(Walker). With the lack of pace we had against Everton I don't know if scoring an early goal was the best time to score, but a goal is a goal.
 
I think that's the important thing that the data show. Getting a goal is so crucially important to winning that other aspects about it (when you get it, for example) fall to the wayside.

Building off Big Sky Spur Big Sky Spur 's reminder in the slumpen thread (that I address in detail) that correlation does not equal causation, I have to remind people that I'm not saying, above, that if Spurs score in the opening 18 minutes that they have an 80% chance of winning. My claim is far more banal, and you touch on it here: there's probably no such thing as "scoring too soon".

If we concede that Spurs are a 2–1 team (and I think that's more or less true), then it means, simply, that one goal will not suffice for us to achieve our objective (three points). So we might as well get that first goal out of the way sooner rather than later, just so that we can focus on getting the second, because it's basically a given that we'll concede at least once.

I am intrigued by the fact that our seven clean sheets in the league include three 0–0 matches. And the other four involved our breaking the 0–0 deadlock in the second half: 55th (Fulham away), 58th (Villa home), 67th (West Brom away) and 75th (Swansea home) minutes. I'm not entirely sure what this suggests, but it feels like it suggests that, in general, we're not good at doing two things at once: scoring goals and keeping clean sheets. It seems like we do either one or the other, with scoring goals being the more common result. But that just grants more value to the idea that "a goal is a goal". Better to get a goal and play for 2–1 than not get a goal and risk 0–0.
 
The problem is, after we score we take our foot off the gas, inviting pressure.

When the other team eventually scores, we then go back on the offensive....

(you may have already said this, but it's 5am and I can't read all that text this early)
 
The problem is, after we score we take our foot off the gas, inviting pressure.
I do discuss this in the OP, but I'll condense it here:

Considering that we have opened the scoring in 20 (out of 28) matches, it shows that we're designed to score first. That's how we play—and it's part of our being an elite team (Woolwich and Chelsea do the same). However, we've "opened" the scoring as late as in the 75th minute (Everton away, Swansea home), and one of those yielded no points, while the other yielded all three. So scoring first is a good thing, all things being equal, because we also win a greater percentage of matches where we score first in comparison to the season as a whole.

Similarly, our inviting pressure by scoring first (and early) seems not to be a problem, since we've won 80% of the matches where we've scored in the opening 18 minutes. That is, even if we break out to 1–0, we still typically end up winning 2–1 or so, in which case the "invited pressure" just rids us of a clean sheet, but not of the three points. Things get more complicated when we jump ahead 1–0 in the 60th minute—when we have less chance to find that second goal to ensure three points despite conceding.

In the graphs I did not distinguish between when we score first and when we're chasing. I just showed where our first goal comes and how it relates to the final result. But I can do that here:

1st quintile: 7-1-1, chasing the result only in one match (Reading home)
2nd quintile: 1-0-1. Both times we opened the scoring (Reading away, City home)
3rd quintile: 3-0-2. Opened the scoring twice with two wins (Woolwich home, West Ham home)
4th quintile: 5-1-0. Opened the scoring five times. Chased QPR home, which ended in a win for us
5th quintile: 1-3-2. Opened the scoring three times, leading to four total points.

So we see here that we chase rarely: 1, 0, 3, 1, 3 by quintile.

And what are our records?

When scoring first: 6-1-1, 1-0-1, 2-0-0, 4-1-0, 1-0-1 = 14-2-2
When scoring second: 1-0-0, 0-0-0, 1-0-2, 1-0-0, 0-2-1 = 3-2-3

IMO the results stand for themselves. I'll take scoring first any day of the week.
 
If I approached football like this, Id hate the sport. If Im fuming about our form, or happy about it, Im not going to check a graph to see if my emotions are justified.
 
Some spurs fans just seem to be able to find negatives in every situation......

1-0 - we can't keep clean sheets we need another
2-0 - the most dangerous scoreline, we're going to fuck it up
3-0 - the isn't over.....we've seen us lose from here before
4-0 - we're now 'using up' goals that we should score in other matches
5-0 + - as above but the players are taking the piss now.....why can't they play like this every week?....
 
The problem is, after we score we take our foot off the gas, inviting pressure.

When the other team eventually scores, we then go back on the offensive....

(you may have already said this, but it's 5am and I can't read all that text this early)

The real issue is, that we are all in all to immature as a team yet to truly change our tactical paradigms quick enough and thoroughly enough to adapt to different situations.

When we score (early) we are too inconsequent about whether wanting to play
a)deep + break fast
b)deep + draw out temp
c)high + break fast
d) high + draw out tempo ~ possession game

Then, when Everton score we cannot change paradigm back again and decide whether to - and how to - start attacking them again for a second goal.

The only thing we seem to be really, really comfortable doing is playing a game of high line pressing + breaking fast through individual efforts from our pacy players.

Having lost King, Modric, VdV this summer + Kaboul all season + BAE, Sandro half the season you have to say that AVB is doing a brilliant job. Yet, as a team there is a whole lot of room for improvement yet.
 
The real issue is, that we are all in all to immature as a team yet to truly change our tactical paradigms quick enough and thoroughly enough to adapt to different situations.

When we score (early) we are too inconsequent about whether wanting to play
a)deep + break fast
b)deep + draw out temp
c)high + break fast
d) high + draw out tempo ~ possession game

Then, when Everton score we cannot change paradigm back again and decide whether to - and how to - start attacking them again for a second goal.

The only thing we seem to be really, really comfortable doing is playing a game of high line pressing + breaking fast through individual efforts from our pacy players.

Having lost King, Modric, VdV this summer + Kaboul all season + BAE, Sandro half the season you have to say that AVB is doing a brilliant job. Yet, as a team there is a whole lot of room for improvement yet.

So basically what we are lacking is leadership on the pitch, people to drive the play and know what to do at the right time.
 
So basically what we are lacking is leadership on the pitch, people to drive the play and know what to do at the right time.

Personally I think so, yeah.

Take a player like Dembélé. Brilliant player, probably would be a frontrunner for Spurs POTS if it was a Bale-free world.

However, truth to be told he is no Modric, is he. Between them, Moussa and Scotty only have one gear to play and that is taking the ball as quickly as possible towards the opposition area, then when finally halted, turn and square the ball for someone.

I wouldn't knock either of them, both are playing out of their skin in terms of effort and commitment. Yet there just aren't that player type you describe, are they?

Ideally speaking, I'd like one of those types in defence, one playing #6 and one playing #10. Ideally.
 
Some spurs fans just seem to be able to find negatives in every situation......

1-0 - we can't keep clean sheets we need another
2-0 - the most dangerous scoreline, we're going to fuck it up
3-0 - the isn't over.....we've seen us lose from here before
4-0 - we're now 'using up' goals that we should score in other matches
5-0 + - as above but the players are taking the piss now.....why can't they play like this every week?....

Even the 9-1 was used against the team by some Spurs fans, to "prove" that our seasons tally was "false".
 
Eperons - is there antything you cannot justify using colour charts?

Perhaps you can do one for the missus and her weekly 'kitchen duties'

:kaboullol:
 
To be fair, it's more a mental thing....
When the ArseAnal score relatively early, it feels like the opposition (and me) accept their fate, and merely play out the remaining game wondering just HOW MANY ArseAnal will win by...
When WE do it, it's like we make the same assumption (about victory) but forget to do anything about it - like scoring again for fun - to ENSURE the victory!
They again, I bet fans of other teams see it totally the other way round...
That's football fans for ya!
 
There is another stat, we have dropped 21 points from winning positions this season. That suggests that it isn't when we score but what how we and the opposition respond once we do. I always assume teams never feel they are beaten by us. We had a period of time where that wasn't the case, conceding only 2 goals after half time in 12 matches but that has changed and we now look like not holding a lead.
 
Eperons - is there antything you cannot justify using colour charts?

Perhaps you can do one for the missus and her weekly 'kitchen duties'

:kaboullol:

At least he uses the appropriately and has solid substance behind his analysis. Of course the purpose of hte post is not to proves something, but least to does dispel yet another popular myth.

analysis 1 - soundbites 0

And that my friend is how you compile and display data appropriately. :adelol:
 
At least he uses the appropriately and has solid substance behind his analysis. Of course the purpose of hte post is not to proves something, but least to does dispel yet another popular myth.

analysis 1 - soundbites 0

And that my friend is how you compile and display data appropriately.

The numbers I posted are official financial annual club audits from Deloitte Touche, etc.

Are you perhaps suggesting those are fake?

:harryfacepalm:
 
Back
Top