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Transfers Summer Transfer Thread 2023! - Closed (Maybe)

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Raumdeuterz said:
In fairness most of the players you’ve listed to try and justify his signing have been utter failures.

(Not that I’m saying Johnson will be. But you’re right that Antony’s numbers were underwhelming for example and … they’ve remained underwhelming.)
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Those are basically all of the most significant and expensive under 23 winger signings to and from the Premier League the last two seasons, so it’s the most indicative sample size in terms of price and performance to compare Johnson to.

I guess I excluded Luís Díaz, who has 10 goals in 34 appearances since coming to Liverpool. Johnson had 8 in 38 for Forest last season, a team which scored literally half the goals that Liverpool did (75 to 38).

Edit: Oh, also Jadon Sancho who has 9 goals and 6 assists combined in two seasons at United.
 
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JDK said:
Comparing Johnson to similarly priced (or more expensive) players in the same age range, Johnson’s 8 goals and 3 assists for a bottom of the table Forest side is more single season production than Doku, Madueke, Mudryk, Ferrán Torres, and Nico Williams have ever achieved in significantly higher scoring teams in the French, Dutch, Ukrainian, and Spanish leagues. Antony’s last season at Ajax he had 8 goals and 4 assists. Anthony Gordon’s best Everton season was 4 goals, 2 assists.

Hard to escape the conclusion that people are just being snobby because he’s from the PL and UK. Players from the PL always get judged way more harshly on these boards than unknown foreign players, just look what people were saying about Maddison before we signed him.
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I'm not sold on Johnson but if he's a player that Ange wants I'll defer to his judgement.
 
Kid Chameleon said:
I'm not sold on Johnson but if he's a player that Ange wants I'll defer to his judgement.
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I don’t know if he’ll work out here either, my point is that those who are acting like he’s shite or £40m would be an insane overpay are not basing their judgments in reality when he’s outperformed numerous of his peers who have bigger reputations and cost substantially more money.

Plus he fills an obvious need for homegrown players and pace in the front three.
 
JDK said:
Those are basically all of the most significant and expensive under 23 winger signings to and from the Premier League the last two seasons, so it’s the most indicative sample size in terms of price and performance to compare Johnson to.

I guess I excluded Luís Díaz, who has 10 goals in 34 appearances since coming to Liverpool. Johnson had 8 in 38 for Forest last season, a team which scored literally half the goals that Liverpool did (75 to 38).

Edit: Oh, also Jadon Sancho who has 9 goals and 6 assists combined in two seasons at United.
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All this is telling me is that recent big wide signings have been shit.

But on the eye test a Diaz has always looked a lot more exciting than Johnson to me. Much better dribbler. I’ve always viewed him as more of a ball carrier type like Doku or Grealish rather than a numbers merchant.

Johnson is decent though I think. I don’t see a high ceiling but could be wrong, I’ve not paid a great deal of attention to him.
 
Think we’ve been absolutely spoiled by Son, and that’s warped our expectations of how many goal contributions is normal from the wings.
 
InBK said:
Think we’ve been absolutely spoiled by Son, and that’s warped our expectations of how many goal contributions is normal from the wings.
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To that point, the wingers in the league last year with more goals than Johnson’s 8 were:
  1. Salah
  2. Martinelli
  3. Saka
  4. Barnes
  5. Almiron
  6. Son
  7. Mbeumo
So third among homegrown wingers as well.
 
JDK said:
To that point, the wingers in the league last year with more goals than Johnson’s 8 were:
  1. Salah
  2. Martinelli
  3. Saka
  4. Barnes
  5. Almiron
  6. Son
  7. Mbeumo
So third among homegrown wingers as well.
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And Barnes went for about 40m this summer as well. The 45-50m price for Johnson is ridiculous, but it is at least based on a market value.
 
FightingIllini said:
Diaz is an unreasonable comparison, but Harvey Barnes really isn't.

Barnes is older, sure, but he's shown MUCH more in the PL than Johnson has.

Anthony Gordon is probably another natural comparison.
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I don’t know why Diaz is such an unreasonable comparison. Diaz was still in Colombia when he was Johnson’s age. We don’t know how Johnson will progress the next three seasons, the age when Diaz got his Liverpool move.

Barnes broke through in his age 22 season with Leicester, with 6 goals and 8 assists, similar to what Johnson did last year, except in a much better side which finished fifth and scored 67 goals compared to Forest’s 38. This year will be Johnson’s age 22 season.

Johnson and Gordon are peers and Johnson has outperformed him substantially in goals and assists.
 
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JDK said:
Barnes broke through in his age 22 season with Leicester, with 6 goals and 8 assists, similar to what Johnson did last year.
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Yeah but 24 starts to 33.

I dunno, I acknowledge Johnson's age, but I just don't see the future growth there. I would be happy paying the 50M if I did.

I like the player Johnson is. But the price tag reflects a belief in the player Johnson is going to be that I don't share.
 
FightingIllini said:
Yeah but 24 starts to 33.

I dunno, I acknowledge Johnson's age, but I just don't see the future growth there. I would be happy paying the 50M if I did.

I like the player Johnson is. But the price tag reflects a belief in the player Johnson is going to be that I don't share.
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I don’t understand how there could be any logical or empirical basis to say a 22 year old with one top flight season has no room to grow as a player? Especially an attacking player who played in a relegation threatened side who barely possessed the ball.

What is that based on?
 
harry7 said:
Son, Veliz, Richarlison, Gil, Kulusevski, Soloman

We seem to have plenty of options across the front 3.

If you're spending 50m+ on a player; you want to be getting the finished product - not a player with "potential".

Richy and Son will get plenty of goals this season. Thus far, Son has been crowded out whenever he has the ball - the opposition coaches know what a threat he is and double up on him. This in turn has created plenty of space for Udogie to make runs.
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Disagree.

Nothing I have seen, mostly in terms of quality from Misshitharlison or again so far from Son (although better in his outfield play) that makes me believe either will score goals aplenty.

I am not sure Johnson is also the ansewr but his pace, directness and potential will, I think add something that we need at present and in the absence of that out and out striker.

The valuation is just modern day nonsense and Forest seeking to capitalise on a prized asset and why shouldn't they.
 
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If Ange wants Brennan Johnson that's enough for me, if it's a Levy buy then as I've said previously, he is again undermining the manager and needs to keep his role to strictly infrastructure.

I have a feeling this one's an Ange buy though, he seems to fit the profile of what Ange needs in his team, a young pacey wide player who can play across the front 3.

I think he gives us options to shuffle the front 3 around depending on how the games going and with Perisic and Solomon able to come in it gives us alot more dynamics across the front.

The price is steep, but that is the price you pay this close to the end of the window for a young talent with prem experience.

Just hope we can offload some deadwood as that's gone pretty quiet and bring in another CB to cover off any injuries and get minutes in cup games etc
 
JDK said:
I don’t understand how there could be any logical or empirical basis to say a 22 year old with one top flight season has no room to grow as a player? Especially an attacking player who played in a relegation threatened side who barely possessed the ball.

What is that based on?
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Pace merchant wingers evolve beyond age 22 when they have a baseline level of technical ability to add more aspects to their game.

Comparisons to guys like Aaron Lennon or Adama Traore (who were as good as they'd ever be at 22) are a bit unfair, but I don't think wildly off base for Johnson's profile.
 
Feels like Brennan Johnson is the punishment for years of ineptitude and failure to sign HG talent. He’s not bad but he’s not the best available, however we’ve backed ourselves into a corner by refusing to buy good HG players from 2016-23 and now, we find ourselves here.

4 foreign players over the limit and desperately in need of HG players to meet the quota.

Try and research who our best HG signing was from Trippier in 2015 to Maddison in 2023.

It’s hilarious. But mostly sad.
 
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Richard Arlison said:
Romero is rolls Royce defender as well.
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Romero is more of a 964 Turbo. Great fun until it loses control and kills you.
Richard Arlison said:
We played forest twice last season and in the Cup the season before I think.

Then you are assuming nobody watches other teams?
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He didn't play all 90 of each game and I guarantee you, a) that's all I've seen of him and b) wasn't even really watching him anyway
 
JDefoe said:
Feels like Brennan Johnson is the punishment for years of ineptitude and failure to sign HG talent. He’s not bad but he’s not the best available, however we’ve backed ourselves into a corner by refusing to buy good HG players from 2016-23 and now, we find ourselves here.

4 foreign players over the limit and desperately in need of HG players to meet the quota.

Try and research who our best HG signing was from Trippier in 2015 to Maddison in 2023.

It’s hilarious. But mostly sad.
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Pepe, Sancho, Phillips, Keita, Vsn Der Beek, Ndombele, Lukaku.

The list is endless.

Sometimes even those players for whom a change of environment, city or system you would think would make no difference fall short or worse.

Let's not slate the club when for the last 7/8 years it has had the biggest blocker eve, not that we complained at the time.
 
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JDK said:
Comparing Johnson to similarly priced (or more expensive) players in the same age range, Johnson’s 8 goals and 3 assists for a bottom of the table Forest side is more single season production than Doku, Madueke, Mudryk, Ferrán Torres, and Nico Williams have ever achieved in significantly higher scoring teams in the French, Dutch, Ukrainian, and Spanish leagues. Antony’s last season at Ajax he had 8 goals and 4 assists. Anthony Gordon’s best Everton season was 4 goals, 2 assists.

Hard to escape the conclusion that people are just being snobby because he’s from the PL and UK. Players from the PL always get judged way more harshly on these boards than unknown foreign players, just look what people were saying about Maddison before we signed him.
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I’m on board with Johnson now even if I only really understand the signing for pace but I’m hoping to see the other reasons.

It’s not snobbery because he’s scored more goals or got more assists.

People just watch football and have different options. Williams and Doku are 1v1 wingers that are very different in style. Doku was one I brought up early in the summer and people poo poo’d it because of his injuries.

There will never be a signing everyone wants. That’s not snobbery. Domestic players are likely that people see more of them and they cost more.
 
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