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Tactics TFC's Tactical Autopsy Thread
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Still think it's too early to call. Last season we were 4th in creating the "biggest chances". I think we'll improve on this (no doubt data to this point doesn't reflect this however, it shows that we aren't creating many big chances) but I think we are way better in out build-up phase than last year, our possession is far more controlled and we are creating an insane amount of entries into the oppo box.
I'm obviously posting this reaction a few weeks down the line (yeah, I'm that far behind on some threads loool) but Solanke has been just as good as I hoped he would be, his pressing is exceptional, as well as his hold-up play.
A caveat to my optimism: We can't play every game with Solanke up front, expect him to fade rapidly post Christmas etc, so we do need Richy fit so that we can maintain his minutes to keep him effective for the duration of the season. With Odobert injured we still lack a 1v1 player in the attacking line up which is paramount to beating low-blocks. But dare I say it are we starting to drop a little deeper to creat space for player to run into - way to early on this but there have been a couple of signs in the last two games, one to keep an eye on. An injury to Vic would mean oppo could take potshots from anywhere and we are likely to concede. Werner has been shocking in every facet of the game in every min he's played, at least last year I know he was shit in front of goal but there were still positives with him turning oppo defenders when he picked up the ball, we are playing with 10men when he comes on.
Agree with this.
Plus there's the other theory (will more than likely be a combination of the above and this) that our Cb's (and Mids/Inverted FB's) keep huge distances between each other, which makes it harder for the oppo to press us as they have to run large distances to close down the player on the ball. On th negative flip side to this however is that when we are passing between CB's if the ball is not pinged with pace it takes to long to get to it's intended target and therefore providing an opportunity for the pressure to mount serious pressure and if he wins that duel then it's 1v1, or another example what we saw from Dragu last night. The ball to him from Micky last night didn't have the required pace on it, Dragu is very one-footed, so he waited for the ball to go across his body onto his right but this meant he was caught in the press. (Compared to Romero I think he would have been braver to take the ball on earlier - not let go onto his right, and therefore almost intercept the ball by taking it early and he would have been facing up the pitch beaten the oppo press and have time to deliver a pass).
Again, I didn’t single out Kulusevski in my original post, and I didn’t post bogus stats designed to inflate his comparison, like you.
My only “agenda” is an opinion that he’s ultimately not good enough and we need better, which is hardly a niche opinion and one I have about several of our players.
Full-backs moving into midfield: The many different interpretations
With so many players interpreting the role in so many different ways, it's time to differentiate the use of these players more precisely
www.nytimes.com
Full-backs moving into midfield: The many different interpretations
Michael CoxThe concept of a full-back drifting into central midfield positions still seems relatively novel.
Yet it’s now over a decade since Pep Guardiola started doing it at Bayern Munich, taking advantage of the fact that his full-backs were Philipp Lahm and David Alaba, two outstanding technicians who both had experience of playing in the engine room for Bayern’s youth sides.
Guardiola continued his plan at Manchester City — initially unsuccessfully. The likes of Pablo Zabaleta, Bacary Sagna and Gael Clichy struggled to get to grips with the position. Others have had more success. Oleksandr Zinchenko was a central midfielder almost permanently fielded ‘out of position’ at left-back. Joao Cancelo felt like a playmaker more than a defender. Rico Lewis is perhaps the first player groomed specifically for this in-between ‘half-back’ role — part-defender, part-midfielder.
By this point, it’s not simply commonplace, but almost mandatory at top clubs. And with so many different players interpreting the role in so many different ways, perhaps it’s time to differentiate the use of these players more precisely.
1) One or two full-backs moving inside?
When Guardiola first unveiled his plan at Bayern Munich, his approach involved bringing both full-backs inside into midfield together. It was almost transformative, treating those players as part of the midfield structure, with the wingers told to remain in the positions where overlapping full-backs would previously have sprinted into.But in recent years, it’s been more common to play something of a hybrid system, in part because many managers — including Guardiola — prefer his defensive block to take a 3-2 structure rather than a 2-3 structure.
So when Woolwich played Brighton earlier this season, for example, Jurrien Timberpushed inside to become a central midfielder, allowing Declan Rice to become a fifth attacker, while Ben White narrowed his position and formed part of a back three. This is probably the more common version.
But Manchester United have often brought both full-backs inside this season. In their defeat to Liverpool, for example, Diogo Dalot and Noussair Mazraoui both shifted inside at the same time, allowing two midfielders to push on.
2) Are they there to attack or to defend?
Every player on the pitch has responsibilities in both respects, of course. But the original idea of the half-back approach was keeping the back four close together, and ready to act as a defensive unit if the opposition counter-attacked quickly.So when Woolwich have used White moving infield into midfield, for example, you tend to think it’s primarily about defensive shape — here, they’re playing against a Brentford side using a counter-attacking front two, and therefore Woolwich want a good defender in that zone, rather than out wide.
That’s very obviously not the thinking when Liverpool managers Jurgen Klopp and Arne Slot have moved Trent Alexander-Arnold infield. That’s a more proactive move, about getting their best passer on the ball more regularly, and in positions where he can play a wider variety of passes.
3) Are they acting as a defensive midfielder or an attacking midfielder?
The general understanding is that if a full-back pushes infield into the midfield zone, they are becoming a temporary holding player — most of the aforementioned screengrabs demonstrate that.But in Manchester City’s 2-2 draw with Woolwich last week, Josko Gvardiol’s role was more advanced — he was tasked with moving inside from left-back to become City’s inside-left, with Rodri (and, when he departed through injury, Mateo Kovacic) as the sole holding player in a 3-5-1-1. As City maintained that shape even after Woolwich went down to 10 men, Gvardiol become a penalty-box threat, and had a couple of decent efforts at goal.
Again, our instinct is to group the roles together, because any full-back moving into midfield still feels like something of a novelty.
But if we differentiate between a holding midfielder and an attacking midfielder in general — and of course we do — we should do the same with regard to these players too.
4) Are they a ball player or a runner?
A tougher one to define, here, because most roles will combine the two. But again, you can say that for any position on the football pitch.We can probably agree that Liverpool’s Alexander-Arnold and Destiny Udogie of Tottenham Hotspur are both brought inside for primarily attacking purposes. But while the idea is to get Alexander-Arnold on the ball because he can play the final pass so effectively, like for his assist for Luis Diaz at the weekend…
…Udogie feels like more of a “willing runner”, helping to take opponents away from the flank, allowing Son Heung-min — Spurs’ key attacker — to receive passes and find more space out wide. Udogie is decent enough in possession, of course, and get onto good forward passes, but he’s not a playmaker in the manner of Alexander-Arnold.
5) Natural or inverted?
The tendency to call these players ‘inverted’ full-backs doesn’t really make sense — the idea of inverted wingers is that they’re fielded on the opposite side to their strong foot, and cut inside and use their stronger foot to shoot. Alexander-Arnold, fielded in a narrower position from the right, isn’t really inverted when playing passes like this.
But Cancelo, when playing for Manchester City from left-back, was a different case. Although he had a fondness for using the outside of his right foot, when hitting crosses like this towards the far post, he was effectively acting as an inverted winger would.
There are further complications, of course, according to different formations and responsibilities with and without the ball. Guardiola has also increasingly turned to using a centre-back, rather than a full-back, stepping into midfield.
But this position has become so common that it’s no longer a variation on a role, as we previously considered it — but a role in itself, with its own variations.
Actually only just read this and my first thought was Archie Gray.Full-backs moving into midfield: The many different interpretations
With so many players interpreting the role in so many different ways, it's time to differentiate the use of these players more precisely
Full-backs moving into midfield: The many different interpretations
Michael Cox
The concept of a full-back drifting into central midfield positions still seems relatively novel.
Yet it’s now over a decade since Pep Guardiola started doing it at Bayern Munich, taking advantage of the fact that his full-backs were Philipp Lahm and David Alaba, two outstanding technicians who both had experience of playing in the engine room for Bayern’s youth sides.
Guardiola continued his plan at Manchester City — initially unsuccessfully. The likes of Pablo Zabaleta, Bacary Sagna and Gael Clichy struggled to get to grips with the position. Others have had more success. Oleksandr Zinchenko was a central midfielder almost permanently fielded ‘out of position’ at left-back. Joao Cancelo felt like a playmaker more than a defender. Rico Lewis is perhaps the first player groomed specifically for this in-between ‘half-back’ role — part-defender, part-midfielder.
By this point, it’s not simply commonplace, but almost mandatory at top clubs. And with so many different players interpreting the role in so many different ways, perhaps it’s time to differentiate the use of these players more precisely.
1) One or two full-backs moving inside?
When Guardiola first unveiled his plan at Bayern Munich, his approach involved bringing both full-backs inside into midfield together. It was almost transformative, treating those players as part of the midfield structure, with the wingers told to remain in the positions where overlapping full-backs would previously have sprinted into.
But in recent years, it’s been more common to play something of a hybrid system, in part because many managers — including Guardiola — prefer his defensive block to take a 3-2 structure rather than a 2-3 structure.
So when Woolwich played Brighton earlier this season, for example, Jurrien Timberpushed inside to become a central midfielder, allowing Declan Rice to become a fifth attacker, while Ben White narrowed his position and formed part of a back three. This is probably the more common version.
But Manchester United have often brought both full-backs inside this season. In their defeat to Liverpool, for example, Diogo Dalot and Noussair Mazraoui both shifted inside at the same time, allowing two midfielders to push on.
2) Are they there to attack or to defend?
Every player on the pitch has responsibilities in both respects, of course. But the original idea of the half-back approach was keeping the back four close together, and ready to act as a defensive unit if the opposition counter-attacked quickly.
So when Woolwich have used White moving infield into midfield, for example, you tend to think it’s primarily about defensive shape — here, they’re playing against a Brentford side using a counter-attacking front two, and therefore Woolwich want a good defender in that zone, rather than out wide.
That’s very obviously not the thinking when Liverpool managers Jurgen Klopp and Arne Slot have moved Trent Alexander-Arnold infield. That’s a more proactive move, about getting their best passer on the ball more regularly, and in positions where he can play a wider variety of passes.
3) Are they acting as a defensive midfielder or an attacking midfielder?
The general understanding is that if a full-back pushes infield into the midfield zone, they are becoming a temporary holding player — most of the aforementioned screengrabs demonstrate that.
But in Manchester City’s 2-2 draw with Woolwich last week, Josko Gvardiol’s role was more advanced — he was tasked with moving inside from left-back to become City’s inside-left, with Rodri (and, when he departed through injury, Mateo Kovacic) as the sole holding player in a 3-5-1-1. As City maintained that shape even after Woolwich went down to 10 men, Gvardiol become a penalty-box threat, and had a couple of decent efforts at goal.
Again, our instinct is to group the roles together, because any full-back moving into midfield still feels like something of a novelty.
But if we differentiate between a holding midfielder and an attacking midfielder in general — and of course we do — we should do the same with regard to these players too.
4) Are they a ball player or a runner?
A tougher one to define, here, because most roles will combine the two. But again, you can say that for any position on the football pitch.
We can probably agree that Liverpool’s Alexander-Arnold and Destiny Udogie of Tottenham Hotspur are both brought inside for primarily attacking purposes. But while the idea is to get Alexander-Arnold on the ball because he can play the final pass so effectively, like for his assist for Luis Diaz at the weekend…
…Udogie feels like more of a “willing runner”, helping to take opponents away from the flank, allowing Son Heung-min — Spurs’ key attacker — to receive passes and find more space out wide. Udogie is decent enough in possession, of course, and get onto good forward passes, but he’s not a playmaker in the manner of Alexander-Arnold.
5) Natural or inverted?
The tendency to call these players ‘inverted’ full-backs doesn’t really make sense — the idea of inverted wingers is that they’re fielded on the opposite side to their strong foot, and cut inside and use their stronger foot to shoot. Alexander-Arnold, fielded in a narrower position from the right, isn’t really inverted when playing passes like this.
But Cancelo, when playing for Manchester City from left-back, was a different case. Although he had a fondness for using the outside of his right foot, when hitting crosses like this towards the far post, he was effectively acting as an inverted winger would.
There are further complications, of course, according to different formations and responsibilities with and without the ball. Guardiola has also increasingly turned to using a centre-back, rather than a full-back, stepping into midfield.
But this position has become so common that it’s no longer a variation on a role, as we previously considered it — but a role in itself, with its own variations.
Not sure there is another profile out there like him... Has the CM ball winning, technical ability and vision, the size and defensive instincts of a CB but also the engine and ball carrying of a touchline FB.
Obvioulsy, he's 18 so not doing any of that as well as the names mentioned in that article, yet but he has a bit of all those players in his game.
Excuse me but what is the meaning of position, tilt and very good situations in this context?
Yeah, our xG was nothing special for a reason. As we stopped playing slow football, our xG improved in the Brentford game.
In the previous post I wrote that we’re not underscoring, we’re on 9.10ish xG and we scored 9 goals.
I take it you are watching this game?
View: https://x.com/xgphilosophy/status/1840443630567256189?s=46&t=DK3x3JffKkqwqcsQdIeO_A
We have to be close to second best xGA after 6 games now?
We do.
And the best xG by a clear distance. Obviously doesn't mean much (though a good indicator), based on our performances this season, we should actually be 2nd in the league behind Liverpool.
EPL xG Table and Scorers for the 2025/2026 season | Understat.com
xG table of EPL standings and top scorers for the 2025/2026 season, also tables from past seasons and other European football leagues.
understat.com
I would be so keen to see our number of touches in United box today. We are definitely one of the highest, if not the highest, in European top 5 leagues. Now we are left with finishing those opportunities and we may be on to something special.
Not how it works.We do.
And the best xG by a clear distance. Obviously doesn't mean much (though a good indicator), based on our performances this season, we should actually be 2nd in the league behind Liverpool.
EPL xG Table and Scorers for the 2025/2026 season | Understat.com
xG table of EPL standings and top scorers for the 2025/2026 season, also tables from past seasons and other European football leagues.
Finishing is a skill.
Full-backs moving into midfield: The many different interpretations
With so many players interpreting the role in so many different ways, it's time to differentiate the use of these players more precisely
Full-backs moving into midfield: The many different interpretations
Michael Cox
The concept of a full-back drifting into central midfield positions still seems relatively novel.
Yet it’s now over a decade since Pep Guardiola started doing it at Bayern Munich, taking advantage of the fact that his full-backs were Philipp Lahm and David Alaba, two outstanding technicians who both had experience of playing in the engine room for Bayern’s youth sides.
Guardiola continued his plan at Manchester City — initially unsuccessfully. The likes of Pablo Zabaleta, Bacary Sagna and Gael Clichy struggled to get to grips with the position. Others have had more success. Oleksandr Zinchenko was a central midfielder almost permanently fielded ‘out of position’ at left-back. Joao Cancelo felt like a playmaker more than a defender. Rico Lewis is perhaps the first player groomed specifically for this in-between ‘half-back’ role — part-defender, part-midfielder.
By this point, it’s not simply commonplace, but almost mandatory at top clubs. And with so many different players interpreting the role in so many different ways, perhaps it’s time to differentiate the use of these players more precisely.
1) One or two full-backs moving inside?
When Guardiola first unveiled his plan at Bayern Munich, his approach involved bringing both full-backs inside into midfield together. It was almost transformative, treating those players as part of the midfield structure, with the wingers told to remain in the positions where overlapping full-backs would previously have sprinted into.
But in recent years, it’s been more common to play something of a hybrid system, in part because many managers — including Guardiola — prefer his defensive block to take a 3-2 structure rather than a 2-3 structure.
So when Woolwich played Brighton earlier this season, for example, Jurrien Timberpushed inside to become a central midfielder, allowing Declan Rice to become a fifth attacker, while Ben White narrowed his position and formed part of a back three. This is probably the more common version.
But Manchester United have often brought both full-backs inside this season. In their defeat to Liverpool, for example, Diogo Dalot and Noussair Mazraoui both shifted inside at the same time, allowing two midfielders to push on.
2) Are they there to attack or to defend?
Every player on the pitch has responsibilities in both respects, of course. But the original idea of the half-back approach was keeping the back four close together, and ready to act as a defensive unit if the opposition counter-attacked quickly.
So when Woolwich have used White moving infield into midfield, for example, you tend to think it’s primarily about defensive shape — here, they’re playing against a Brentford side using a counter-attacking front two, and therefore Woolwich want a good defender in that zone, rather than out wide.
That’s very obviously not the thinking when Liverpool managers Jurgen Klopp and Arne Slot have moved Trent Alexander-Arnold infield. That’s a more proactive move, about getting their best passer on the ball more regularly, and in positions where he can play a wider variety of passes.
3) Are they acting as a defensive midfielder or an attacking midfielder?
The general understanding is that if a full-back pushes infield into the midfield zone, they are becoming a temporary holding player — most of the aforementioned screengrabs demonstrate that.
But in Manchester City’s 2-2 draw with Woolwich last week, Josko Gvardiol’s role was more advanced — he was tasked with moving inside from left-back to become City’s inside-left, with Rodri (and, when he departed through injury, Mateo Kovacic) as the sole holding player in a 3-5-1-1. As City maintained that shape even after Woolwich went down to 10 men, Gvardiol become a penalty-box threat, and had a couple of decent efforts at goal.
Again, our instinct is to group the roles together, because any full-back moving into midfield still feels like something of a novelty.
But if we differentiate between a holding midfielder and an attacking midfielder in general — and of course we do — we should do the same with regard to these players too.
4) Are they a ball player or a runner?
A tougher one to define, here, because most roles will combine the two. But again, you can say that for any position on the football pitch.
We can probably agree that Liverpool’s Alexander-Arnold and Destiny Udogie of Tottenham Hotspur are both brought inside for primarily attacking purposes. But while the idea is to get Alexander-Arnold on the ball because he can play the final pass so effectively, like for his assist for Luis Diaz at the weekend…
…Udogie feels like more of a “willing runner”, helping to take opponents away from the flank, allowing Son Heung-min — Spurs’ key attacker — to receive passes and find more space out wide. Udogie is decent enough in possession, of course, and get onto good forward passes, but he’s not a playmaker in the manner of Alexander-Arnold.
5) Natural or inverted?
The tendency to call these players ‘inverted’ full-backs doesn’t really make sense — the idea of inverted wingers is that they’re fielded on the opposite side to their strong foot, and cut inside and use their stronger foot to shoot. Alexander-Arnold, fielded in a narrower position from the right, isn’t really inverted when playing passes like this.
But Cancelo, when playing for Manchester City from left-back, was a different case. Although he had a fondness for using the outside of his right foot, when hitting crosses like this towards the far post, he was effectively acting as an inverted winger would.
There are further complications, of course, according to different formations and responsibilities with and without the ball. Guardiola has also increasingly turned to using a centre-back, rather than a full-back, stepping into midfield.
But this position has become so common that it’s no longer a variation on a role, as we previously considered it — but a role in itself, with its own variations.
Playing against ManU today with Maddison and Kulusevski in central midfield I think the full backs reverted to being close to conventional full backs as there was much less room in the CM position
This may also mean that Spurs had a stronger defence with 2 CB's and 2 FB's
This maybe why Van de Venn had the freedom early on to break forward at speed to cut back to Johnson in 3rd minute to score.
A tactical tweak which ManU may not have been aware of and didn't plan for ?
Thoughts ?
View: https://x.com/arabanalytics/status/1839696235432755245?s=46&t=DK3x3JffKkqwqcsQdIeO_A
More data suggesting our press is making us very stingey defensively when it comes to box touches allowed.
Fulham also pretty interesting for me looking at the charts. They don’t press much but when they do, they shut teams out