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Tactics TFC's Tactical Autopsy Thread

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Shotgunofmichalebrow said:
It's tactics that's the problem alright...just not Brighton's. It's our tactical rigidity and the way we set up that allowed what happened second half to happen. It really is who we are, so the best and only thing to do is simply accept it and hope the people who say it will be alright and we just need faith and eventually this year two transformation sweeps us to a title of some kind.
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How did the way we set up cause Udogie and Cuti to make several basic and catastrophic defensive errors?

Or are you suggesting we should have played a double defensive pivot after a 0-2 first half in anticipation of (and thus inviting) pressure - because we've seen how that worked out for our defenders the last 4 years.

Genuinely confused. It wasn't the high line or inverted fullbacks that caused those goals was it?
 
just like last season - when we collapse - we COLLAPSE

typically last season -we would be smashed and there is no crawling back - esp in the second half.

at brighton - once they scored -you could sense the looming collapse & the gaffer didn;t do much until the 78th min.

this is crazy on the gaffer's part.
 
Starks said:

View: https://x.com/GreavesGhost/status/1843275749454917857?t=39VPZ14_bbaseTaRU20WUw&s=19

No idea what happened at half time.

But look at this half arsed press to kick off the second half. Poor fucking Solanke.



View: https://x.com/GreavesGhost/status/1843276852892418242?t=-AW4CLa_4mey9BeXfNv3Lg&s=19

Second goal is basically the same.



I don't know if it was pure laziness. Players starting to believe their own hype or if they were simply shattered.

Either way, there's not much you can really take tactically from this game outside of the players letting everyone down.
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Super high line with no pressure on the man with the ball. Where have we seen that before...

The problem with both of these goals is how easily the ball makes its way to their left winger, both times completely unmarked and in acres of space to pick a pass in behind the lines. You can go on about individual mistakes after this moment - and there were - but once the wide left has the ball there with that high a line we're in serious trouble, and that is an issue with the defensive coaching.

1st goal: Solanke clearly thinks the instructions are to keep pressing high; the rest of the front 4 are on a completely different wavelength and are content to settle into a more passive midblock. Then nobody seems to know who is picking up the left wing - Johnson is in no-man's-land between Dunk and the #10, and Porro has been dragged inside by a run. Real problems of coordination, communication, and tactical instruction.

2nd goal: Literally identical. Front 5 keep passively dropping into a midblock, the back 4 seem unaware of this and keep a comically high line. Then no pressure on the ball allows it to go out to the winger with ease, Porro duped by the exact same run taking him inside, and Johnson lost in no mans land.

There's a lot more going on here than just a few individual mistakes.
 
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View: https://x.com/Jon_Mackenzie/status/1843333742246670467

Good thread on the tactical set up yesterday.

In short: Brighton kept 4 men up high up the pitch from goal kicks, pinning our defenders back. And because we weren't committed to the high press it gave them overloads in the first phase (7 v 5, including the keeper).

On occasion, our press worked, which led to our opener, but frequently Brighton were able to play it round our high press with relative ease - if you recall their best chance of the first half, the Mitoma cross to Welbeck, that came about because Maddison committed himself to the high press without enough backup, and when he was bypassed we were wide open.

I suspect Brighton's success in passing it round our high press led to the disconnect in our players we saw in the comment above: Solanke still thinking the tactic was to press high, but the rest of our attacking players dropping into a midblock and not committing to the press.

What your left with is a passive midblock with no pressure on the man on the ball, a high line set up for the high press - probably 10 yards too high, and too narrow positioning from Porro and passivity from Johnson leading to Brighton being able to work it out to the wide players on both occasions for their goals.
 
Klaus said:
Super high line with no pressure on the man with the ball. Where have we seen that before...

The problem with both of these goals is how easily the ball makes its way to their left winger, both times completely unmarked and in acres of space to pick a pass in behind the lines. You can go on about individual mistakes after this moment - and there were - but once Mitoma has the ball there with that high a line we're in serious trouble, and that is an issue with the defensive coaching.
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The problem here is not a "super high line"



The problem was actually the reverse. The problem is that the structure has collapsed, the front group are now ambling about allowing Brighton's CB's and midfield to advance and pressure ahead of the defence has disappeared (Solanke starts by following the keeper whilst nobody else follows him in, he's now out of the press - and what the fuck is Johnson doing here, absolutely nothing constructive leaving no pressure on the player who plays it through to Mitoma whatsoever) and the problem is the game has been allowed to stretch out, leaving big spaces. The defence have actually dropped and FB's are in orthodox FB positions.

The second problem is that having been put under pressure by the actions ahead of them, the back four do not deal with basic stuff competently at all. Porro is wrong side and doesn't try hard enough to prevent Mitoma crossing, fuck knows what Romero is doing (maybe his positioning is correct but I'm not sure) VDV fails to cut out the cross and Udogie can't kick a fucking ball because it's his wrong foot ffs).

Second goal features all the same issues. Shit pressure, structure has collapsed and stretched the pitch and then defenders can't do basic fucking things competently.

This is one of the big differences between us right now and say Klopp's Liverpool - which at times had it's weaknesses exposed (tactical and structural like Fb's being part of the attack andTAA not being quick or good defensively) but they had people like VVD, Matt/Konate to compensate and a bunch of 5-6 forwards who could score their way out of trouble. As well as Fabhino in the 6, not fucking Bentancur plodding around.

You look at that Werner ball for Johnson or the Kulusevski ball for Solanke - such simple passes to create high value chances fucked right up, then up the other end defenders (including Bentancur) wearing fucking clown shoes, not able to do the simplest things like tackle, kick a ball or block a shot between two of them.

Ange's system comes with risk. But fuck me, we could mitigate that with some better players all over the pitch.
 
bus-conductor said:
The problem was actually the reverse. The problem is that the structure has collapsed, the front group are now ambling about allowing Brighton's CB's and midfield to advance and pressure ahead of the defence has disappeared (Solanke starts by following the keeper whilst nobody else follows him in, he's now out of the press - and what the fuck is Johnson doing here, absolutely nothing constructive leaving no pressure on the player who plays it through to Mitoma whatsoever) and the problem is the game has been allowed to stretch out, leaving big spaces. The defence have actually dropped and FB's are in orthodox FB positions.
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???

If you read the rest of my comment I basically said the exact same as you:
Klaus said:
1st goal: Solanke clearly thinks the instructions are to keep pressing high; the rest of the front 4 are on a completely different wavelength and are content to settle into a more passive midblock. Then nobody seems to know who is picking up the left wing - Johnson is in no-man's-land between Dunk and the #10, and Porro has been dragged inside by a run. Real problems of coordination, communication, and tactical instruction.
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Aka, collapse of pressing structure led to their winger receiving the ball in acres of space.

My comment on the "high line with no pressure on the ball" you seem to have taken as mainly a critique of the high line. No. The main issue here is the "no pressure on the ball". There's nothing inherently wrong with a high line so long as your first line of defence are pressurising the man with the ball.

Where our press is passive like yesterday, with the loss of coordination in the press (Solanke etc) and then players ambling not putting pressure on the Brighton centrebacks (Johnson etc), then the high line does become problematic because all of a sudden Mitoma has the ball in acres of space and a piss-easy pass in behind.

My point isn't that you solve this sequence by dropping the back 4 ten yards deeper - that just increases the space between front and back and if anything makes us more open.

My point is you solve it by (1) fixing the coordination of the press - either get Solanke to drop into the midblock or the forwards to join him in the high press, not the mishmash we ended up with, & (2) getting those players to put pressure on the ball and prevent Mitoma receiving the ball in acres of space. Both of these issues are coordination & coaching issues.

Alternatively, if you can't sort out the high press, the other option is to drop the entire team 10 metres. I think this is a viable alternative dependant on game state; it's much easier to organise, much more difficult to exploit, and teams like Woolwich have shown how effective it can be in controlling a game and denying the opposition space. Pointless to discuss though cos our manager only knows one way of playing.
 
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As a side note, surely yesterday finally kills the narrative that our biggest problem under Ange is our "inability to finish chances".

It is, and always has been, how easy we are to score against.
 
Ange's coaching ensemble is bereft of any experience coach. Name me one -who's done & won things.

2 new guys added in the new season:-
Former Central Coast Mariners pair Nick Montgomery (sacked from Hibernian) and Sergio Raimundo have joined Tottenham as part of Ange Postecoglou’s coaching staff

existing
Chris Davies (Senior Assistant Coach), Mile Jedinak (Assistant Coach), Ryan Mason (Assistant Coach), Matt Wells (Assistant Coach) and Rob Burch (Goalkeeper Coach).
 
bus-conductor said:
The problem here is not a "super high line"



The problem was actually the reverse. The problem is that the structure has collapsed, the front group are now ambling about allowing Brighton's CB's and midfield to advance and pressure ahead of the defence has disappeared (Solanke starts by following the keeper whilst nobody else follows him in, he's now out of the press - and what the fuck is Johnson doing here, absolutely nothing constructive leaving no pressure on the player who plays it through to Mitoma whatsoever) and the problem is the game has been allowed to stretch out, leaving big spaces. The defence have actually dropped and FB's are in orthodox FB positions.

The second problem is that having been put under pressure by the actions ahead of them, the back four do not deal with basic stuff competently at all. Porro is wrong side and doesn't try hard enough to prevent Mitoma crossing, fuck knows what Romero is doing (maybe his positioning is correct but I'm not sure) VDV fails to cut out the cross and Udogie can't kick a fucking ball because it's his wrong foot ffs).

Second goal features all the same issues. Shit pressure, structure has collapsed and stretched the pitch and then defenders can't do basic fucking things competently.

This is one of the big differences between us right now and say Klopp's Liverpool - which at times had it's weaknesses exposed (tactical and structural like Fb's being part of the attack andTAA not being quick or good defensively) but they had people like VVD, Matt/Konate to compensate and a bunch of 5-6 forwards who could score their way out of trouble. As well as Fabhino in the 6, not fucking Bentancur plodding around.

You look at that Werner ball for Johnson or the Kulusevski ball for Solanke - such simple passes to create high value chances fucked right up, then up the other end defenders (including Bentancur) wearing fucking clown shoes, not able to do the simplest things like tackle, kick a ball or block a shot between two of them.

Ange's system comes with risk. But fuck me, we could mitigate that with some better players all over the pitch.
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all you wrote may be right, but the bottom Statement is the most important
these are the players Ange has, he has to either make the players fit or change his system to fit what he has, and as we see the players are not good enough for the system, so Ange should change the system BUT he won't, and why should he, if he gets the sack he gets a full payoff
 
Klaus said:
As a side note, surely yesterday finally kills the narrative that our biggest problem under Ange is our "inability to finish chances".

It is, and always has been, how easy we are to score against.
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Sure, if the Brighton game was used in isolation to form such narrative for the season.

It was quite simply a bad 45 minutes, that followed a pretty excellent one where we pretty much dominated Brighton. It happens, it's football.

I don't think our issue was ever "to finish chances", it's creating meaningful ones.
 
Starks said:
Sure, if the Brighton game was used in isolation to form such narrative for the season.

It was quite simply a bad 45 minutes, that followed a pretty excellent one where we pretty much dominated Brighton. It happens, it's football.

I don't think our issue was ever "to finish chances", it's creating meaningful ones.
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Spot on , I stepped back from the chatter about our stats it is all about creating or finding space in the box.
 
Look shipmates it's pointless trying to point out how well he did at J Pop and those perennial losers Celtic he lost me at the Chelsea game " 5 versus 11 we go for it with Vicario as rush goalie it's who we are mate"

I totally get the lovers argument of too much change we are sick of it but what if we are sticking with a fool?
 
Klaus said:
As a side note, surely yesterday finally kills the narrative that our biggest problem under Ange is our "inability to finish chances".

It is, and always has been, how easy we are to score against.
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The narrative was our inability to convert good situations (xthreat) into good chances, and yesterday we saw that ie Werner/Johnson and Kulusevski/Solanke.

We did also saw Johnson blaze over when 1v1. and last week Werner wasted 2 1v1’s
 
erlee said:
Ange's coaching ensemble is bereft of any experience coach. Name me one -who's done & won things.

2 new guys added in the new season:-
Former Central Coast Mariners pair Nick Montgomery (sacked from Hibernian) and Sergio Raimundo have joined Tottenham as part of Ange Postecoglou’s coaching staff

existing
Chris Davies (Senior Assistant Coach), Mile Jedinak (Assistant Coach), Ryan Mason (Assistant Coach), Matt Wells (Assistant Coach) and Rob Burch (Goalkeeper Coach).
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irrelevant really

Ange's staff have as much experience as Poch's staff did, and many would say the later was a success.

Then you have Conte's staff with all there worldly experience and titles and what did that achieve, dead football and capitulations as well
 
erlee said:
ARE YOU ENTERTAINED...well are you??

Since winning 26 from his first 30 points in the Premier League, Ange has won 50 from 105 pts since.
By comparison, Ten Hag has won 53 points from 105 - AND Ten-Hag is about to lose his job whilst Ange is safe as Houses.
:ange-pray:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDtc5_EDSVI
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Ten Hag has spent 600m+ and has never finished above Ange whilst managing the biggest football club in world football.

Why are we even comparing the two? More importantly, what's this got to do with this thread?
 
erlee said:
ARE YOU ENTERTAINED...well are you??

Since winning 26 from his first 30 points in the Premier League, Ange has won 50 from 105 pts since.
By comparison, Ten Hag has won 53 points from 105 - AND Ten-Hag is about to lose his job whilst Ange is safe as Houses.
:ange-pray:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDtc5_EDSVI
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Ten Hag’s had three years and about three times the budget which was added to another three times the budget spent just prior.

And at least you can see the coached ethos with Ange, unlike ETH who nobody can figure out what they are doing, including his players.
 
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bus-conductor said:
Ten Hag’s had three years and about three times the budget which was added to another three times the budget spent just prior.

And at least you can see the coached ethos with Ange, unlike ETH who nobody can figure out what they are doing, including their players.
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Remarkably, since Ange Postecoglou became manager at the beginning of last summer, no Premier League team has a higher net spend than Tottenham is Chelsea. As you can see below, they are -€273.45m in the red, despite selling star striker Harry Kane to Bayern Munich last July for €95m. They also rank second in total transfer expenditure in that same period, with only Chelsea spending more (€653.1m) than Spurs' total of €420.95m

www.transfermarkt.com

Highest net spend in PL since Postecoglou arrived - what should Spurs' expectations be?

Remarkably, since Ange Postecoglou became manager last summer, no Premier League team has a higher net spend than Tottenham is Chelsea. As you can see below, they are -€273.45m in the red, despite selling star striker Harry Kane to Bayern Munich.
www.transfermarkt.com www.transfermarkt.com
 
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