Jones is a better #6 than Rice. Especially in the international game when teams will notice he can't play on the half turn.
Jones
Rice Bellingham
Palmer Kane Gittens
Think that's probably what it should be now. Maybe Gordon still ahead of Gittens.
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Match The ENGLAND thread
- Thread starter YidoBuckler
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Jones is a better #6 than Rice. Especially in the international game when teams will notice he can't play on the half turn.
Jones
Rice Bellingham
Palmer Kane Gittens
Think that's probably what it should be now. Maybe Gordon still ahead of Gittens.
Totally agree here's a list of England player who 'in their own words' didn't perform well when they played for England :-
Paul Scholes
Phil Foden
Harry Kane
Robbie Fowler
David Batty
Jamie Vardy
Also let's not forget the following have dropped out for 'reasons' & to be honest I think they're a bunch of pussies but Trent has gone on record saying he would rather win the Ballon'Dor than England Win a trophy which a bullshit circle jerk award based on nothing but journalists thoughts on a popularity contest so personally he can fukk right off. I wouldn't speak to Trent if I met him in the street I'd probably tell him to fukk off.
View: https://youtu.be/thZzcK5tgyM?si=6Neym6Rzujvdu6Pv&t=600
"Trent Alexander-Arnold, Cole Palmer, Phil Foden, Jack Grealish, Bukayo Saka, Declan Rice, Aaron Ramsdale and Levi Colwill have dropped out." - Nov 2024
Harry Kane unhappy with England squad withdrawals
Captain Harry Kane is unhappy with the number of players who have withdrawn from the latest England squad, insisting "England comes before club".
www.bbc.co.uk
Hasn't Rice & Palmer dropped out?
I rate Rice highly but he’s definitely more a PL player than an international. His physicality and engine week to week prem wise is exceptional but the international game is far slower and more tactical.
So yeah - we need someone to progress the ball in there which Jones currently is.
I like Jones as a player but he needs to learn better when to release the ball sooner at times. He can get caught on the ball and playing as a 6 you'll get found out against a France, Germany, Spain etc. I always see him more attack minded than defensive.
Still, we've made finals and semi-finals with Southgate in charge and despite the lack of an outstanding number 6. If Tuchel can't at least replicate that with the players he has available then I would be hugely surprised, considering his in-game management is light years ahead of Gareth's.
Still, we've made finals and semi-finals with Southgate in charge and despite the lack of an outstanding number 6. If Tuchel can't at least replicate that with the players he has available then I would be hugely surprised, considering his in-game management is light years ahead of Gareth's.
As for Kane, I don't think the fact that he's not as mobile or physical as he once was is enough to not see him starting games. He's still the best goal-scorer in the world alongside your Lewandowski's and Haaland's. His lack of ability to press if you try to play that style can be a concern, but that's down to Thomas to figure out.
Would definitely have Gordon over Gittens right now. The latter is a talent but still has loads to learn. Also Rogers too although I'm not sure what his actual best position is.
From CIES Football Observatory
Link if anyone wants to look at other nations:Next full internationals: players to watch - CIES Football Observatory
Luka Vuskovic #4 for Croatia.
Kinsky #1 for Czechia
Link if anyone wants to look at other nations:Next full internationals: players to watch - CIES Football Observatory
Luka Vuskovic #4 for Croatia.
Kinsky #1 for Czechia
Agree with your take on the #6 being our problem position. Wharton is probably the most natural fit and I have very high hopes for him, but he's still a little raw and needs to make a move to a club who play a more possession style of play to be sure he can hack the responsibility in possession at international level. He's also been injures for ages.
Mainoo simply isn't a #6 for me. Too poor defensively, and not positionally responsible enough.
Gomes is nice and tidy on the ball and is sort of the right profile if you're looking for a playmaker mould, but he can't play there on his own, at least not against any half-decent opposition. He's tiny and would get absolutely bullied, and offer nothing in defence. Maybe he could be paired with a Rice or Gallagher in a double pivot, but that means you have to sacrifice one of the #8s going forward, and ideally we want to fit both Bellingham and Palmer into the midfield. (Although if it simply doesn't work I'm open to dropping one and simply playing a double pivot. Midfield balance takes precedence over personnel).
Another option: been analysing the City Madrid game and I think Stones did the job very well in that first half. He's not particularly progressive on the ball but he doesn't lose it, you can pass to him in tight spaces and he keeps it extremely well. And of course he's good defensively. Looks to me a better fit for the solo #6 role than Rice does at least. Something to consider.
Obviously we'd miss him in the back line. But Guehi is a very talented CB and is a captain for his club. He could potentially lead the back line adequately in Stones' absence.
Then there are plenty of talented options for who could play next to him. Colwill, Branthwaite, Konsa, Ben White if Tuchel gets him back into the fold.
Not saying it would definitely work but could be an option worth considering.
Not sure I agree on Jones. Yes he progresses the ball well but he prefers to play the way he's facing. He's also very mobile and plays much more of an 8 role for Liverpool. In the 6, or the double pivot, we need a player who can sit and receive the ball back to goal and turn. For Liverpool that guy is Gravenberch, or Mac Allister. I don't particularly think it's Jones.
Nor is Rice that type of player, hence why Arteta has moved him to the 8 role, and hence why England couldnt progress the ball for shit last summer.
Maybe those two together would help each other a bit more, but I still think we'd suffer with ball progression with both in there. Is it worth dropping one of Jude or Palmer for? Not sure.
Players who can receive back to goal: Mainoo, Stones, Wharton, Jude (but he's way too big headed these days to force him back into a defensive role). Possibly Angel Gomez, but need to see him do it against better opponents. Possibly Jones, unclear. For me you need one of them in there if we're going to play any sort of possession football through the midfield (remains to be seen under Tuchel).
Tuchel might just build us as a straight up counter attacking side and fuck off possession. Which wouldn’t be popular or attractive but might work. I agree Jones isn’t ideal, it’s just he’s the best we have, probably. We have no actual ball playing 6 who is proven.
You have to drop one of Jude or Palmer regardless I think. Like you say, Jude isn’t giving up the 10 role to do a dirty work job. He wants goals.
It shouldn’t be a huge issue - having one or the other to come off the bench is pretty nice. The issue would be forcing them both in and they get in each others way.
Definitely worth thinking about but Stones at CB or Stones at DM = you can’t rely on it. Too injury prone now: either way England need to find a long term solution.
Tuchel loves players that do well off the ball. Palmer isn't lazy, but it's probably his weakest attribute. I just don't see him being a regular under Tuchel. I think he comes on the Bellingham when he tires, or maybe starts when he's missing. Gordon is a Tuchel sort of player and he will start on the left, Saka on the right, with Kane up top. Also, Tuchel is a massive fan of Rashford, so if he finds any kind of form for Villa don't be surprised to see him back in the squad.
Right now I think there's only 6/7 certainties. When Luke Shaw is fit, and that's a huge when, he will play as he's still our best left-back at the moment. As Alexander-Arnold isn't good on the ball I just don't see him starting under Tuchel at right-back.
Pickford
???
Stones
???
Shaw
???
Rice
Bellingham
Saka
Gordon
Kane
Right now I think there's only 6/7 certainties. When Luke Shaw is fit, and that's a huge when, he will play as he's still our best left-back at the moment. As Alexander-Arnold isn't good on the ball I just don't see him starting under Tuchel at right-back.
Pickford
???
Stones
???
Shaw
???
Rice
Bellingham
Saka
Gordon
Kane
Not sure I agree with this. Kane is hardly very good off the ball and Tuchel loves him.
Tuchel is nothing if not flexible in his formations and approach. I'm willing to bet he'll find a way of getting Palmer into the side.
Also Shaw simply can't be relied on going forward.
Palmer is waaaayyyyy too good to not have a prominent role but frankly it may be a case of Bellingham vs Palmer and not being able to start both ... and yeah, they both offer very different things.
Shaw is done. He is barely even still an athlete. What is it now, going on two years and he's maybe played a handful of actual matches in that time?? Trust one of the young left backs and move on.
Agree on Bellingham and Palmer. The dream is to get them both into the side but the recent history of English football is littered with failed examples of managers who've tried to shoehorn all the best players into the XI at the cost of team balance.
Thing with Palmer and Bellingham is they're so different. Jude could play a deeper 8 or B2B role I'm sure, or even in the pivot, I just think he sees himself as too much of a star these days to sacrifice himself like that for the good of the team.
But like you say, Palmer is so ridiculously talent he's hard to leave him out too.
You obviously make an exception for Kane. I don't think you also make one for Palmer in the same team. If Palmer plays as well as Bellingham then one will be a square peg in a round hole. We've had far too much of that with England in the past. You play your best players in their best positions, and our best players right now are Bellingham, Kane and Saka. You can argue Palmer, but the other three are established and have many more caps.
Palmer might actually currently be better than all of those. Seriously.
Unreal footballer.
Good as he is, I still think Bellingham has the edge if I was picking between the two. Albeit they are very different players. Maybe Tuchel can be the one to get a tune out of Foden for England too and then you have three world-class players that can compete for that number 10 role. You could always use Bellingham as a false 9 if Kane was out or you wanted something different which then creates a space for Palmer.