The Return of Fans to Stadiums

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Would you attend matches at 10-25% capacity

  • Yes - COYS!

    Votes: 116 74.8%
  • No

    Votes: 26 16.8%
  • I'd rather go to another Take That reunion

    Votes: 13 8.4%

  • Total voters
    155
There were 28 cases from 58,000 people who attended the test events prior to the Euros. How many confirmed cases have come from the Euros ? Aside from the drip of stories in the media, all timed to support this policy, what has actually been presented to make this necessary after 8 months of vaccine roll out. I find it curious how it’s the Euros being (hinted) blamed, but not Wimbledon etc.

There was a huge study of mass attendance events in 2014 conducted by PHE which did not conclude a need for Vaccine passports. Yet here we are.

A vaccine passport to get into the game, but not for the bus up and down the high road ? Or the trains and tubes that are much more packed than the Stadium spaces. It is totally illegitimate.

Yet Gove (who is PM in all but name) seems to think the case is “strong” ? Ok. Why is it strong? Someone telling me it’s strong is not evidence, where is the report ? where is the stress test, the cost v benefit analysis, the debate in Parliament or the proper public consultation?
 

Airfixx

Death to petro-murder-ball sports-washing.
Mine was already set at the league cup final. I took every action I reasonably could against that for excluding disabled / young from that event, under the pretence of an unnecessary “test” event was a step too far. I cannot see me doing anything other than asking for a refund. This is for me a “no more” moment. I have had the vaccine and ok, I survived, but the rancid thing has fucked my mum’s life royally of late so I don’t see how coercion or forced “papers please” is good for anyone. And as for showing my personal medical details to a Carlisle Security worker - fuck right off.

I am open minded, so happy to be convinced how this is good for football or good for society….

I am hopeful everyone is doing their “best” but vaccines, especially in the trial stage, are not a nil cost intervention and as such while in clinical trials (till 2023 I should add) forcing people seems “off”. Ok the way around it is lateral tests, but using them is dangerous given how reliable they are. So that’s not an answer for me.

Quite frankly, as passionate as I am about Spurs; I frankly couldn't give a shit about football in the grand scheme of things... Certainly not in this current climate/context.... It's just a non-essential leasure activity as far as I'm concerned.


My question (and prior post) comes form a broader base than covid; point being about infringement of freedoms and the processing and potential storage of personal information.... The whole "papers please" notion transcends covid. For what it's worth, I'm not talking about forcing people to have vaccines either....

"And as for showing my personal medical details to a Carlisle Security worker - fuck right off."

I tend to feel the same (I stopped attending the aforementioned venues for this very reason); but in doing so I accept there's a freedom of choice at the root of that sentiment and action.....

....We're not talking "papers please" as in the literal reference to Nazis/Jews in the 40's; nor are we talking a 'no vaccine; no NHS access' doctrine.

Sure one could argue that 'it's a slippery slope' and I completely concur we must be guarded, but equally a sense of perspective is also required.

[I dunno... Perhaps this is suited to another thread.]

I note you mention your mum; a horrible outcome (I hope she's feeling somewhat better at least)...... I think we spoke of this before and reached a mutually respectful empase with regards to such cases vs 'resigning the covid vulnerable to a life in hiding' as being opposing sides of the same undesirable coin.
 
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There were 28 cases from 58,000 people who attended the test events prior to the Euros. How many confirmed cases have come from the Euros ? Aside from the drip of stories in the media, all timed to support this policy, what has actually been presented to make this necessary after 8 months of vaccine roll out. I find it curious how it’s the Euros being (hinted) blamed, but not Wimbledon etc.

There was a huge study of mass attendance events in 2014 conducted by PHE which did not conclude a need for Vaccine passports. Yet here we are.

A vaccine passport to get into the game, but not for the bus up and down the high road ? Or the trains and tubes that are much more packed than the Stadium spaces. It is totally illegitimate.

Yet Gove (who is PM in all but name) seems to think the case is “strong” ? Ok. Why is it strong? Someone telling me it’s strong is not evidence, where is the report ? where is the stress test, the cost v benefit analysis, the debate in Parliament or the proper public consultation?

Is it better to sit with 50,000 vaccinated people or with 50,000 non-vaccinated people?

If you answer that question rationally then only allowing vaccinated people into a confined area for 90 minutes makes sense .... surely mitigating risk is any society's prime responsibility?

As soon as Covid becomes just another illness then that requirement can be dropped, but right now you can't seriously blame any venue for putting safety first.
 
Quite frankly, as passionate as I am about Spurs; I frankly couldn't give a shit about football in the grand scheme of things... Certainly not in this current climate/context.... It's just a non-essential leasure activity as far as I'm concerned.


My question (and prior post) comes form a broader base than covid; point being about infringement of freedoms and the processing and potential storage of personal information.... The whole "papers please" notion transcends covid. For what it's worth, I'm not talking about forcing people to have vaccines either....

"And as for showing my personal medical details to a Carlisle Security worker - fuck right off."

I tend to feel the same (I stopped attending the aforementioned venues for this very reason); but in doing so I accept there's a freedom of choice at the root of that sentiment and action.....

....We're not talking "papers please" as in the literal reference to Nazis/Jews in the 40's; nor are we talking a 'no vaccine no NHS access' doctrine.

Sure one could argue that 'it's a slippery slope' and I completely concur we must be guarded, but equally a sense of perspective is also required.

[I dunno... Perhaps this is suited to another thread.]

I note you mention your mum; a horrible outcome (I hope she's feeling somewhat better at least)...... I think we spoke of this before and reached a mutually respectful empase with regards to such cases vs 'resigning the covid vulnerable to a life in hiding' as being opposing sides of the same undesirable coin.
Yes, you are quite right. In the scheme of things it’s an expensive first world problem/choice. Do or do not ( as a wise Jedi said )

With all things Covid, my sense is that a deep breath is needed & pause is a good thing. I understand that “Politics” seldom allows for this. And in today’s social media lifestyle you really do need some balls to afford yourself the ability to “do nothing”

But I believe, good leadership comes from knowing when “do nothing” works and allowing things to settle without state intervention benefits society. If politicians stop trying to force action and get comfortable doing less, counter intuitive perhaps, we would likely find either no difference in outcome or indeed an improved experience on route to the outcome. But by always doing something you can end up wrecking your house looking for a mouse.

A vaccine passport policy sold with clear benefits, rationale thought and with an end date committed to may have some merits (might not).

A policy that looks rushed, is forced rather than sold, appears without benefit and is enforced will mostly look ill considered and tyrannical.

Gove saying that there is a “Strong case” for them does not mean there is a such a case at all. It’s diktat with no end. And it will not stop at Football, until we see confirmation that it will stop there, and that is concerning for everyone. The Government must make the case stronger than they are doing, except the Coronovirus Emergency powers act essentially enables them to do anything they so wish. These people (no people) should hold such unaccounted power.
 
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Is it better to sit with 50,000 vaccinated people or with 50,000 non-vaccinated people?

If you answer that question rationally then only allowing vaccinated people into a confined area for 90 minutes makes sense .... surely mitigating risk is any society's prime responsibility?

As soon as Covid becomes just another illness then that requirement can be dropped, but right now you can't seriously blame any venue for putting safety first.
The Vaccines do not stop people spreading Covid and The Vaccines do not stop people getting Covid.

I understand Gove’s rationale is partly based on “super spreader” fears. Which by their definition is a small (single ?) number infecting others. Assuming that does happen ( and that is an assumption) then it will only take one or two people at football to cause the problem they are trying to manage out. So how does the Vaccine passport benefit ?

To date how many people, world wide have been proven to have been infected in an outdoor sports stadium ? In Florida for example ? I don’t know, but is it enough to make this necessary? With the evidence I would feel better informed and not want to kick back so hard.

I personally (and I can only write personally) do not especially care about someone else around me. I had the vaccine. I was told that would make me safer. That’s good enough for me. The arguments about “how safe” are tricky to have, the chance of myself dying from Covid or being serious ill were slim pre vaccine. My chances post vaccine are slim too, so I’m happy to stand next to anyone as long as they are not a gooner. ( gentle joke there obviously )
 
The Vaccines do not stop people spreading Covid and The Vaccines do not stop people getting Covid.

I understand Gove’s rationale is partly based on “super spreader” fears. Which by their definition is a small (single ?) number infecting others. Assuming that does happen ( and that is an assumption) then it will only take one or two people at football to cause the problem they are trying to manage out. So how does the Vaccine passport benefit ?

To date how many people, world wide have been proven to have been infected in an outdoor sports stadium ? In Florida for example ? I don’t know, but is it enough to make this necessary? With the evidence I would feel better informed and not want to kick back so hard.

I personally (and I can only write personally) do not especially care about someone else around me. I had the vaccine. I was told that would make me safer. That’s good enough for me. The arguments about “how safe” are tricky to have, the chance of myself dying from Covid or being serious ill were slim pre vaccine. My chances post vaccine are slim too, so I’m happy to stand next to anyone as long as they are not a gooner. ( gentle joke there obviously )

I think we're in total agreement - there is very little if any evidence to show that mass events are super-spreaders - however if there is even the slightest risk that they are, however small that chance any venue must try and mitigate that risk, proven or unproven.

The vaccine like most vaccines is in principle a minor dose of the disease, far from stopping you getting Covid it actually gives you a "safe" version of Covid that starts your body's production of antibodies.

Vaccinated people - whopping cough, malaria and now Covid - are not immune they are just statistically far less likely to catch a serious case, or become highly infectious should they still catch the disease they have been vaccinated against.

It's the entire premise for herd immunity - when enough people are vaccinated or have already had a disease - that disease is unable to propagate at an R-factor greater than 1 .... thus it dies out.
 
Didn’t really know where best to put this….
While speaking to the ticket office yesterday I took the opportunity to enquire when the Wolves away game might go on sale. The question seemed to flummox the very helpful lady I was speaking to and after a nervous pause she stated that it was by no means certain that away fans would be admitted to matches in the near future.I didn’t give her a hard time about this (why shoot the messenger?) but if true I think it is a totally unnecessary and unjustified policy.Would welcome other posters thoughts on this.
 
Is it better to sit with 50,000 vaccinated people or with 50,000 non-vaccinated people?

If you answer that question rationally then only allowing vaccinated people into a confined area for 90 minutes makes sense .... surely mitigating risk is any society's prime responsibility?

As soon as Covid becomes just another illness then that requirement can be dropped, but right now you can't seriously blame any venue for putting safety first.
People attending an event have a choice and can not go. However the staff that work there surely also have to be jabbed or it defeats the object as they could infect others. Therefore is compulsory vaccination proposed for staff at these events with the option of the sack? That is far more sinister.
 
People attending an event have a choice and can not go. However the staff that work there surely also have to be jabbed or it defeats the object as they could infect others. Therefore is compulsory vaccination proposed for staff at these events with the option of the sack? That is far more sinister.
Not really - many, many jobs have requirements that not all potential employees can accept or meet - if being vaccinated is a short term requirement for football stadium match-day staff then that's not sinister it's just good risk management.

As soon as that risk goes away the requirement should be dropped - not dropping it would be sinister, but applying it during transition from pandemic to safe ... is that so strange?
 
Not really - many, many jobs have requirements that not all potential employees can accept or meet - if being vaccinated is a short term requirement for football stadium match-day staff then that's not sinister it's just good risk management.

As soon as that risk goes away the requirement should be dropped - not dropping it would be sinister, but applying it during transition from pandemic to safe ... is that so strange?
Cannot agree with that especially with the threat from Covid diminishing but will never go away. Will all the Police attending have to be jabbed as well? There are posts on here of people attending test events where their passport was not properly checked and it will never be fully secure but tHe main objection to passports is that you can still spread it even if you have been jabbed. How long are the 2 jabs going to cover you for. Some will have had them some time ago and will they be refused entry if no booster after 6 months? I doubt I will be the only one who refuses to go on principle whilst they are being required.
Hopefully Parliament will never pass it but as they on hols a vote will not happen until September after plans will have to be in place.
 
Cannot agree with that especially with the threat from Covid diminishing but will never go away. Will all the Police attending have to be jabbed as well? There are posts on here of people attending test events where their passport was not properly checked and it will never be fully secure but tHe main objection to passports is that you can still spread it even if you have been jabbed. How long are the 2 jabs going to cover you for. Some will have had them some time ago and will they be refused entry if no booster after 6 months? I doubt I will be the only one who refuses to go on principle whilst they are being required.
Hopefully Parliament will never pass it but as they on hols a vote will not happen until September after plans will have to be in place.

Parliament should never pass any laws forcing the public to take vaccinations ... 100% against that.

However in this case a football stadium should use every means in it's power to ensure the safety of it's patrons - if that requires all staff and all visitors to show proof of current vaccination for a few months then that's what they should do - if you can't attend on principle you will miss a few games, that's hardly the end of the world and it just might prevent a higher r-rate.

Personally I don't think football matches are super-spreader events but the evidence to support that is simply not yet available ... my guess is come 2022 grounds will be back to normal, it's not that far away.
 
I went to a test event at Wimbledon and they did at least glance at the passport, had people going up and down the queue checking them before anything else and giving a wristband.

I'm not fussed if we have to do it, complete and utter waste of time and money if they continue to allow the self-certification that is a lateral flow test though.

Personally still think this'll be another "Boris turn" though, just an empty threat to try and up vaccination rates.
 

Airfixx

Death to petro-murder-ball sports-washing.
Outdoors for football: Prototype Vax passports.
Indoors for The Proms: Proof of negative test.

:gallashmm:
 
Parliament should never pass any laws forcing the public to take vaccinations ... 100% against that.

However in this case a football stadium should use every means in it's power to ensure the safety of it's patrons - if that requires all staff and all visitors to show proof of current vaccination for a few months then that's what they should do - if you can't attend on principle you will miss a few games, that's hardly the end of the world and it just might prevent a higher r-rate.

Personally I don't think football matches are super-spreader events but the evidence to support that is simply not yet available ... my guess is come 2022 grounds will be back to normal, it's not that far away.

Rumours that the bill wont get voted through in parliament anyway. But I guess it will depend on Labour. They should vote against it, but I don't know if they will. There are enough tory MPs to rebel.
 

Extracts from above


With this in mind, we would not want to see entry denied to those who were not double vaccinated as we believe this would be unethical, exclusive, and impractical. Those who are double-vaccinated can still catch and transmit the virus, for example.
But we also think the Club and Premier League should be pushing back harder on this because of the ethical and practical issues involved. We would also like to see greater prominence given to provisions for supporters who do not have smartphones and so therefore cannot use the NHS app.
As we write this, indications are growing that the Government may soften its position, but our expectation is that requirements will not be confirmed until close to the start of the season.
 

Furball man

Supporter
🍄🍄🍄🍄🍄🍄🍄🍄🍄
I got a ticket to watch Debrecen v Ujpest today . Getting it with my Uk COVID pass was a bit of a pain as they were insistent that they only accepted Hungarian “ Immunity cards” . I told them that what’s the point of having a international COVID pass if it’s not accepted internationally .
They eventually sold me a ticket but said they are not sure if the scanners will accept my Q code when I actually go to the match.

Countries are going to have to work together to sort this out especially with fans travelling for European fixtures.
It’s not just footie too , lots of events only accept a pass of some sort .
 
Extracts from above


With this in mind, we would not want to see entry denied to those who were not double vaccinated as we believe this would be unethical, exclusive, and impractical. Those who are double-vaccinated can still catch and transmit the virus, for example.
But we also think the Club and Premier League should be pushing back harder on this because of the ethical and practical issues involved. We would also like to see greater prominence given to provisions for supporters who do not have smartphones and so therefore cannot use the NHS app.
As we write this, indications are growing that the Government may soften its position, but our expectation is that requirements will not be confirmed until close to the start of the season.

Not having a smartphone is a fairly moot point when they are making season tickets fully digital
 
Not having a smartphone is a fairly moot point when they are making season tickets fully digital
This.
When I'm at games or the beach, those sort of things, I normally take my "Prison Phone" as the kids call it.
It's tiny and serves its purpose, also it doesn't get in the way and is lightweight.
But, it's not a smartphone.
I've posted in another thread that I'm having all sorts of problems getting my Android phone ready for matches and it's a fuckin nightmare, especially getting the NHS app to work properly.

Looks like I'm gonna be a busy boy this week trying to get it sorted before the first home game.
I think some of the problems are down to my phone to be fair regarding the NHS app.
Onwards and upwards.
 
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