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Transfers The Winter Transfer Thread - 25/26

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Frank can't be backed right now. He just can't. We'll only be digging a bigger hole for ourselves. We aren't going to make top 4 this year anyway so what's the point panicking on short term signings just to move a few places up the league table?

I'd rather see us play the youth and start the proper foundations of a rebuild
Get ready for a new manager next summer. If Frank turns it around in between then great, we can back him in the summer. But not now. Its not the time. We aren't ready to take the next step.
 
Locatelli’s miles better than either of them. Juventus would take the right money for him. It’s just the case of would he be willing to come here. Italians don’t usually like moving outwith Italy if they can avoid it. And it’s a similar story with Latin boys that grow up dreaming of playing for Madrid and Barca, if an Italian kid ends up at Juve or one of the Milan teams, they usually have to be dragged out kicking and screaming.
Tonali is enjoying himself
Maybe that helps us a bit
 
Pretty much

I'll post stuff from a different game to support my conclusion regarding midfielders just acting as decoys to presumably kick it forward in a more efficient manner towards an attacker isolated with his defender, although it at the first glance might imply an intent to play out from the back in a rather risk-prone manner.

It's from the Newcastle game where I can vividly remember us spending the first 20 minutes or so doing this weird goal kick routine where midfielders were dropping deep as if we were trying to play out from the back, only for the keeper / a defender to kick it.

First, to have a mental map of who's playing where, we started the game with a lineup of:

Vicario
Porro-Romero-Danso-Udogie
Sarr-Bentancur
Kudus-Bergvall-Johnson
RKM

-------​




Newcastle, like everybody and his dog these days, use a strict man marking scheme in a high press situation. I see a clear 8v8 in these two screenshots merged together.
Normally, teams bring this many players inside their own half to initiate a sequence of short passes where they try to play their way out of trouble.

We instead do it for this:

RUG9Md.gif


Seems clear to me that everything was hinging on Kudus getting the ball glued to his feet with a good first touch before rolling it to either Bentancur or Sarr for the recipient to initiate a quick break. Something like these:







I can appreciate the appeal of a strategy while not necessarily buying it myself. The appeal for Frank is obvious to me here:
  1. To bypass the midfield. Zero risk of losing the ball right on the edge of your box or something​
  2. To manage to get the ball to either RKM or Bergvall in one of the ways outlined above, and to create a 3v3 in rather open space with minimal effort.​


All the strategies in the game entail risk and reward. There's no avoiding the trade-offs altogether.

For him, #2 is the high reward that managers that get their teams to take the huge [and rather unnecessary] risk of playing out from the back are trying to obtain. Well, if you can simply get to a very similar end point with way less effort and risk in the way described above, why would you not take it? Who cares how ugly it might appear on TV screen?

Sounds valid, in the sense that the conclusion logically follows from the premise. Is the premise actually true though? Does it actually eliminate the risk while also retaining a decent upside that can be obtained at least some of the time?

Not really. See below.

-------​


Another goalkick 30 seconds later. The cameraman does us a huge favour with this camera angle that reaffirms the initial observations regarding the team shape and the general strategy: Another 8v8 inside our own half, and a 2v2 up front where Kudus and Johnson are isolated with their respective defenders.

Let's see what happens:

LitGfc.gif


The same outcome: We easily lose the ball for Newcastle to possibly launch a quick attack themselves. The double-edged nature of this strategy, like all strategies as I said, becomes apparent. Frank is not avoiding the risk altogether by refusing to play out from the back with short passes; he cannot. He's rather kicking the can down the road.

Allowing these two 3 minutes into a game is not very safe is it?

j4u47w.gif


AbKV1s.gif


Frank tried to solve this conundrum during the next 15 minutes or so with a few small adjustments before giving up completely and sending everybody forward.

--------​
My takeaways:
  1. Can this be improved / perfected? Sure. Get a winger who can wrestle and carry the ball as well as Kudus does while also having a first touch and technique that's superior to the latter's, and you would see more instances of the ball sticking up front. Get a target man with similar qualities, and they would take turns being on the receiving end of these passes.Whether or not this should be perfected is a whole different discussion that probably warrants a seperate post.
  2. Can Frank really, truly change one day ? I don't see it. Not only this current football, but also the fact that Brentford under Andrews have been one of the most direct teams in the league in every statistical category that measures the directness of a team's passing strongly testify against it. The way I see it, Frank's footballing brain is hardwired to assess risks and rewards of possession play in the way outlined above where long balls will always have the edge over shorter passes.
  3. What are the implications of all these for the future? We'll most likely bumble along the mid-table / bottom-half by winning the every second or the third game, and the highly anticipated returns of some of the absentees won't actually make a significant difference. Whether or not Frank would get another season on the back of this would depend on how influential Vinai actually is, since we keep getting leaks of how he stood by Arteta in darkest hour or whatever. If Frank was not Levy's guy, he could very well be Vinai's to emulate the so called Arteta model on a smaller scale. I'm far from convinced that his goose is already cooked, and that they're waiting til the summer for more managers to become available.


Another one!

Really appreciate the effort to explain and post gifs/images.

Edit: Admin Admin these should be published on the site or at least their own thread imo. With counter analysis etc

Completely matches what I’ve been feeling in games and explained why.

Also, completely confirms that Frank is gaslighting the fanbase when he says he wants to play free flowing football eventually and this is just building “layers”. It’s clearly not, he wants to turn us into Brentford on a bigger budget. He’s got zero interest in the tradition or culture of the club and fanbase.

At the end of the day, he’s right that if he’s successful and wins stuff, it won’t matter because the fans will get behind him but he’s not showing any signs of being successful with it yet.
 
Another one!

Really appreciate the effort to explain and post gifs/images.

Edit: Admin Admin these should be published on the site or at least their own thread imo. With counter analysis etc

Completely matches what I’ve been feeling in games and explained why.

Also, completely confirms that Frank is gaslighting the fanbase when he says he wants to play free flowing football eventually and this is just building “layers”. It’s clearly not, he wants to turn us into Brentford on a bigger budget. He’s got zero interest in the tradition or culture of the club and fanbase.

At the end of the day, he’s right that if he’s successful and wins stuff, it won’t matter because the fans will get behind him but he’s not showing any signs of being successful with it yet.
I have an iron rule never to go in the tactical autopsy thread -- which must be full of nerds and weirdos. Do they do this in there? If so I might dip in.
 
Excellent work. I find it funny that there are a handful of people on the forum who fully understand the game they are watching. There's a bunch that dont but as one of the former group are you not dismayed by how obvious some of the teams issues are and how blind the coaching and recruitment staff seem to it.
Very kind of you, but I truly don't think I'm anything more than a casual fan of the game. And I certainly don't claim to know more about the game than those who are in this for a living.

I don't think it's simply a matter of not seeing things; but a willingness to live with them, at least to a certain extent. Everything you can include under the umbrella terms of strategy / tactics involves trade-offs; the art of coaching is to learn to live with the downsides as best you can while trying to obtain the upsides to the fullest.

As I said in another post, the way I see it, Frank's footballing brain is hardwired to assess risks and rewards of possession play in such a way that long(er) balls will always be preferable to short(er) passes in the grand scheme of things.

That's because he considers the potential upside, namely the opportunity to quickly progress the ball towards the opponents' goal with little risk of turning it over in a dangerous area, extremely valuable. So he's willing to live with the downside, namely the stretches where long balls keep coming straight back to our own half to doom us to get trapped inside our own half and possibly concede as well.

He, like any manager, can change and evolve; but this change would most likely still take place inside that framework. I don't see the framework itself changing anytime soon.
 
cheeky loan bid for vinicius junior?
and if he is a hit buy him in the summer
€1 billion release clause:kaneear:
:levyeyes:
 
Last edited:
Tactical autopsy thread is exactly for that purpose, don't think anything additional is necessary.

I usually post this kind of tedious stuff there, but I happened to derail this thread with not one but two of them this time as the conversation went in that direction.
 
Pretty much

I'll post stuff from a different game to support my conclusion regarding midfielders just acting as decoys to presumably kick it forward in a more efficient manner towards an attacker isolated with his defender, although it at the first glance might imply an intent to play out from the back in a rather risk-prone manner.

It's from the Newcastle game where I can vividly remember us spending the first 20 minutes or so doing this weird goal kick routine where midfielders were dropping deep as if we were trying to play out from the back, only for the keeper / a defender to kick it.

First, to have a mental map of who's playing where, we started the game with a lineup of:

Vicario
Porro-Romero-Danso-Udogie
Sarr-Bentancur
Kudus-Bergvall-Johnson
RKM

-------​




Newcastle, like everybody and his dog these days, use a strict man marking scheme in a high press situation. I see a clear 8v8 in these two screenshots merged together.
Normally, teams bring this many players inside their own half to initiate a sequence of short passes where they try to play their way out of trouble.

We instead do it for this:

RUG9Md.gif


Seems clear to me that everything was hinging on Kudus getting the ball glued to his feet with a good first touch before rolling it to either Bentancur or Sarr for the recipient to initiate a quick break. Something like these:







I can appreciate the appeal of a strategy while not necessarily buying it myself. The appeal for Frank is obvious to me here:
  1. To bypass the midfield. Zero risk of losing the ball right on the edge of your box or something​
  2. To manage to get the ball to either RKM or Bergvall in one of the ways outlined above, and to create a 3v3 in rather open space with minimal effort.​


All the strategies in the game entail risk and reward. There's no avoiding the trade-offs altogether.

For him, #2 is the high reward that managers that get their teams to take the huge [and rather unnecessary] risk of playing out from the back are trying to obtain. Well, if you can simply get to a very similar end point with way less effort and risk in the way described above, why would you not take it? Who cares how ugly it might appear on TV screen?

Sounds valid, in the sense that the conclusion logically follows from the premise. Is the premise actually true though? Does it actually eliminate the risk while also retaining a decent upside that can be obtained at least some of the time?

Not really. See below.

-------​


Another goalkick 30 seconds later. The cameraman does us a huge favour with this camera angle that reaffirms the initial observations regarding the team shape and the general strategy: Another 8v8 inside our own half, and a 2v2 up front where Kudus and Johnson are isolated with their respective defenders.

Let's see what happens:

LitGfc.gif


The same outcome: We easily lose the ball for Newcastle to possibly launch a quick attack themselves. The double-edged nature of this strategy, like all strategies as I said, becomes apparent. Frank is not avoiding the risk altogether by refusing to play out from the back with short passes; he cannot. He's rather kicking the can down the road.

Allowing these two 3 minutes into a game is not very safe is it?

j4u47w.gif


AbKV1s.gif


Frank tried to solve this conundrum during the next 15 minutes or so with a few small adjustments before giving up completely and sending everybody forward.

--------​
My takeaways:
  1. Can this be improved / perfected? Sure. Get a winger who can wrestle and carry the ball as well as Kudus does while also having a first touch and technique that's superior to the latter's, and you would see more instances of the ball sticking up front. Get a target man with similar qualities, and they would take turns being on the receiving end of these passes.Whether or not this should be perfected is a whole different discussion that probably warrants a seperate post.
  2. Can Frank really, truly change one day ? I don't see it. Not only this current football, but also the fact that Brentford under Andrews have been one of the most direct teams in the league in every statistical category that measures the directness of a team's passing strongly testify against it. The way I see it, Frank's footballing brain is hardwired to assess risks and rewards of possession play in the way outlined above where long balls will always have the edge over shorter passes.
  3. What are the implications of all these for the future? We'll most likely bumble along the mid-table / bottom-half by winning the every second or the third game, and the highly anticipated returns of some of the absentees won't actually make a significant difference. Whether or not Frank would get another season on the back of this would depend on how influential Vinai actually is, since we keep getting leaks of how he stood by Arteta in darkest hour or whatever. If Frank was not Levy's guy, he could very well be Vinai's to emulate the so called Arteta model on a smaller scale. I'm far from convinced that his goose is already cooked, and that they're waiting til the summer for more managers to become available.
giphy.gif
weird-cat.gif

I have an iron rule never to go in the tactical autopsy thread -- which must be full of nerds and weirdos. Do they do this in there? If so I might dip in.
 
Frank can't be backed right now. He just can't. We'll only be digging a bigger hole for ourselves. We aren't going to make top 4 this year anyway so what's the point panicking on short term signings just to move a few places up the league table?

I'd rather see us play the youth and start the proper foundations of a rebuild
Get ready for a new manager next summer. If Frank turns it around in between then great, we can back him in the summer. But not now. Its not the time. We aren't ready to take the next step.
We should be buying versatile players that can play under any system, irrespective of the manager. Pacy, strong wingers for example with a good cross on them who can beat their man, and get around 10-15 goal contributions a season. And a striker who can control and hold the ball up, can beat this man more often than not and can score goals from most positions.
 
Scott is definitely a player technical enough to control football games.

Garner isn’t bad technically either even if he’s definitely more dominant physically in that Everton team.
Scott, like Wharton, Eze, Bowen (to name a few) were all championship players we were linked with for a fraction of the price we'd have to pay now and points to a poor recruitment policy which is responsible for overpaying excessively for (in the main) absolute dross.
 
We should be buying versatile players that can play under any system, irrespective of the manager. Pacy, strong wingers for example with a good cross on them who can beat their man, and get around 10-15 goal contributions a season. And a striker who can control and hold the ball up, can beat this man more often than not and can score goals from most positions.
People are taking their hatred of Frank too far. Wanting us to lose, wanting to not improve the squad all to spite the manager.

Yeah frank is probably about to lose his job, but the squad still needs to be improved, whether for Frank or the next guy
 
BJK - I both like and hate your posts.

I like them in that I learn from them. You lot have a lifetime of experience watching football seriously. I started 10 years ago, learning as I go.

I hate your posts because they are depressing. 😂
 
Scott, like Wharton, Eze, Bowen (to name a few) were all championship players we were linked with for a fraction of the price we'd have to pay now and points to a poor recruitment policy which is responsible for overpaying excessively for (in the main) absolute dross.

So was Gray though.

Scott under the pressure to perform at this club wouldn’t have had the time away from the spotlight to develop that he did at Bournemouth,

Wharton as well, gets away with bad days at Palace that he wouldn’t at Spurs.

Still, I wanted us to sign both and we definitely should’ve. It’s just not the same in practice at Spurs
 
Pretty much

I'll post stuff from a different game to support my conclusion regarding midfielders just acting as decoys to presumably kick it forward in a more efficient manner towards an attacker isolated with his defender, although it at the first glance might imply an intent to play out from the back in a rather risk-prone manner.

It's from the Newcastle game where I can vividly remember us spending the first 20 minutes or so doing this weird goal kick routine where midfielders were dropping deep as if we were trying to play out from the back, only for the keeper / a defender to kick it.

First, to have a mental map of who's playing where, we started the game with a lineup of:

Vicario
Porro-Romero-Danso-Udogie
Sarr-Bentancur
Kudus-Bergvall-Johnson
RKM

-------​




Newcastle, like everybody and his dog these days, use a strict man marking scheme in a high press situation. I see a clear 8v8 in these two screenshots merged together.
Normally, teams bring this many players inside their own half to initiate a sequence of short passes where they try to play their way out of trouble.

We instead do it for this:

RUG9Md.gif


Seems clear to me that everything was hinging on Kudus getting the ball glued to his feet with a good first touch before rolling it to either Bentancur or Sarr for the recipient to initiate a quick break. Something like these:







I can appreciate the appeal of a strategy while not necessarily buying it myself. The appeal for Frank is obvious to me here:
  1. To bypass the midfield. Zero risk of losing the ball right on the edge of your box or something​
  2. To manage to get the ball to either RKM or Bergvall in one of the ways outlined above, and to create a 3v3 in rather open space with minimal effort.​


All the strategies in the game entail risk and reward. There's no avoiding the trade-offs altogether.

For him, #2 is the high reward that managers that get their teams to take the huge [and rather unnecessary] risk of playing out from the back are trying to obtain. Well, if you can simply get to a very similar end point with way less effort and risk in the way described above, why would you not take it? Who cares how ugly it might appear on TV screen?

Sounds valid, in the sense that the conclusion logically follows from the premise. Is the premise actually true though? Does it actually eliminate the risk while also retaining a decent upside that can be obtained at least some of the time?

Not really. See below.

-------​


Another goalkick 30 seconds later. The cameraman does us a huge favour with this camera angle that reaffirms the initial observations regarding the team shape and the general strategy: Another 8v8 inside our own half, and a 2v2 up front where Kudus and Johnson are isolated with their respective defenders.

Let's see what happens:

LitGfc.gif


The same outcome: We easily lose the ball for Newcastle to possibly launch a quick attack themselves. The double-edged nature of this strategy, like all strategies as I said, becomes apparent. Frank is not avoiding the risk altogether by refusing to play out from the back with short passes; he cannot. He's rather kicking the can down the road.

Allowing these two 3 minutes into a game is not very safe is it?

j4u47w.gif


AbKV1s.gif


Frank tried to solve this conundrum during the next 15 minutes or so with a few small adjustments before giving up completely and sending everybody forward.

--------​
My takeaways:
  1. Can this be improved / perfected? Sure. Get a winger who can wrestle and carry the ball as well as Kudus does while also having a first touch and technique that's superior to the latter's, and you would see more instances of the ball sticking up front. Get a target man with similar qualities, and they would take turns being on the receiving end of these passes.Whether or not this should be perfected is a whole different discussion that probably warrants a seperate post.
  2. Can Frank really, truly change one day ? I don't see it. Not only this current football, but also the fact that Brentford under Andrews have been one of the most direct teams in the league in every statistical category that measures the directness of a team's passing strongly testify against it. The way I see it, Frank's footballing brain is hardwired to assess risks and rewards of possession play in the way outlined above where long balls will always have the edge over shorter passes.
  3. What are the implications of all these for the future? We'll most likely bumble along the mid-table / bottom-half by winning the every second or the third game, and the highly anticipated returns of some of the absentees won't actually make a significant difference. Whether or not Frank would get another season on the back of this would depend on how influential Vinai actually is, since we keep getting leaks of how he stood by Arteta in darkest hour or whatever. If Frank was not Levy's guy, he could very well be Vinai's to emulate the so called Arteta model on a smaller scale. I'm far from convinced that his goose is already cooked, and that they're waiting til the summer for more managers to become available.
Brilliant post.

Regarding your very final point, I think you're probably absolutely right that Vinai is waiting/hoping for Frank to turn it around like Arteta did. However, I think Frank may well make the decision for him if things don't improve.

Look at Woolwich's results in Arteta's first full season - at one point in mid-December they had a run of 1 win in 10 games, including seven losses. They were fucking shit.

But later in that same season they put together some genuine form. They were pretty inconsistent but they had a couple impressive little runs winning 5 in 6 and the last 5 games of the season in a row. The board were patient, but they were also quite quickly rewarded with improvement and genuine signs of growth, hence they gave Arteta more time. The next season they rose up the table and almost finished 4th until were battered them (lol). And then the growth continued from there.

If Frank muddles through the rest of the season without any signs of genuine growth, the fans aren't happy and the players aren't happy, then I doubt Vinai will just blindly stick with Frank. Frank needs to show the fans, the players and the board that there is something there to actually build on like Arteta did.

I reckon unless Frank can replicate something like the 2nd half of the season results in the link above, and some genuine signs of growth, then Vinai will see the writing on the wall. He'd be mad to stick with Frank for a second season if we finish 10th-15th, the football is dire, and everyone hates him.

I reckon barring outright catastrophe (an awful losing streak and fan/player revolt) Vinai will let Frank see out the season but my sense is he sure ain't gonna give him another one.
 
Frank can't be backed right now. He just can't. We'll only be digging a bigger hole for ourselves. We aren't going to make top 4 this year anyway so what's the point panicking on short term signings just to move a few places up the league table?

I'd rather see us play the youth and start the proper foundations of a rebuild
Get ready for a new manager next summer. If Frank turns it around in between then great, we can back him in the summer. But not now. Its not the time. We aren't ready to take the next step.
Who do you expect to take on the job if we hang yet another manager out to dry in the Jan window despite clearly being in desperate need of improvement? You know we are a much less attractive proposition for prospective managers for precisely that reason?
I feel we should spend £150m net, it's not like we can't quantifiably improve the side for the next manager if and when Frank goes as long as we do our homework, an LB, LW and CM are obvious needs, regardless who is manager.
 
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