Stadium Tottenham Hotspur Stadium

[Nahkbert]

Just arrived back home (abroad) after five days in London and getting to see the fight in the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium and the shit show at the emirates. I could add my two cents as an outsider and also ask couple of questions for those who regularly get to go to the games.

On Saturday we decided to travel early to the boxing match so we get to hang around in the stadium and sense the atmosphere. Travelling there was very easy and comfortable from the Liverpool street station. As we were there so early, we got right in and could get beer with out queuing. The stadium is absolutely stunning, especially the inside of the stadium (the stands, screens, club boxes, all). Our section was 254 two rows down from the entrance, so we had very decent seats.

There were couple of issues for us. First was the inadequate speed/number of food and mostly drink outlets. We had to wait well in excess of 30 minutes and the line for our last order was probably closer to an hour. In a boxing event it isn't such a huge issue but I just wonder how much revenue is lost because there is no way everybody gets their drinks in the 15 minutes of a football match half time. The pints that can be filled from the bottom are cool but are they really that fast? Do you get to buy beer during the half time?

The second issue was getting out of the stadium. We first ordered an uber couple blocks away from the stadium, but the driver cancelled on us. Then we started walking towards the train station but the line was already all the way to the street and pretty quickly we were informed that the station was closing and that we wouldn't get in. Then we took a bus that was going towards the City where we could get an uber. It all took couple of hours and was pretty chaotic. For us in our 20s it was manageable but I think people my parents' age from a different country would have been in real trouble trying to find their way to the City. Are there really no extra trains or busses after this kind of massive event where almost 70 000 people need to commute simultaneously? How do you get home after the events? Do you just wait in line for trains and then the busses after the trains stop? How long will it usually take?

 

[JimothyCF14]

Just arrived back home (abroad) after five days in London and getting to see the fight in the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium and the shit show at the emirates. I could add my two cents as an outsider and also ask couple of questions for those who regularly get to go to the games.

On Saturday we decided to travel early to the boxing match so we get to hang around in the stadium and sense the atmosphere. Travelling there was very easy and comfortable from the Liverpool street station. As we were there so early, we got right in and could get beer with out queuing. The stadium is absolutely stunning, especially the inside of the stadium (the stands, screens, club boxes, all). Our section was 254 two rows down from the entrance, so we had very decent seats.

There were couple of issues for us. First was the inadequate speed/number of food and mostly drink outlets. We had to wait well in excess of 30 minutes and the line for our last order was probably closer to an hour. In a boxing event it isn't such a huge issue but I just wonder how much revenue is lost because there is no way everybody gets their drinks in the 15 minutes of a football match half time. The pints that can be filled from the bottom are cool but are they really that fast? Do you get to buy beer during the half time?

The second issue was getting out of the stadium. We first ordered an uber couple blocks away from the stadium, but the driver cancelled on us. Then we started walking towards the train station but the line was already all the way to the street and pretty quickly we were informed that the station was closing and that we wouldn't get in. Then we took a bus that was going towards the City where we could get an uber. It all took couple of hours and was pretty chaotic. For us in our 20s it was manageable but I think people my parents' age from a different country would have been in real trouble trying to find their way to the City. Are there really no extra trains or busses after this kind of massive event where almost 70 000 people need to commute simultaneously? How do you get home after the events? Do you just wait in line for trains and then the busses after the trains stop? How long will it usually take?

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I can't speak for halftime because I don't tend to bother with a halftime drink. Let's face it, even when Spurs are shit I don't see the point in rushing down and throwing a pint down my neck to make it back up to my seat. Each to their own, but I arrive about an hour before KO and have a couple before the game. I've never experienced slow service before a match. If I leave my seat at half time, it's to go to the toilet.

At fulltime, you're right, the queue for the Tube is pretty awful. My strategy with that is to stay in the stadium and have a pint or two as the bigger bars stay open for a fair bit after the game ends with live music. Again, no problems with the speed of service. A couple of postmatch pints and the queue to Seven Sisters is all but gone.

In all honesty, with the pint or two after the match strategy I find getting away a lot less stressful than it was at Wembley. Queuing for the Jubilee line all the way down Wembley Way was a right pain in the ass.

 

[Yid7]

I can't speak for halftime because I don't tend to bother with a halftime drink. Let's face it, even when Spurs are shit I don't see the point in rushing down and throwing a pint down my neck to make it back up to my seat. Each to their own, but I arrive about an hour before KO and have a couple before the game. I've never experienced slow service before a match. If I leave my seat at half time, it's to go to the toilet.

At fulltime, you're right, the queue for the Tube is pretty awful. My strategy with that is to stay in the stadium and have a pint or two as the bigger bars stay open for a fair bit after the game ends with live music. Again, no problems with the speed of service. A couple of postmatch pints and the queue to Seven Sisters is all but gone.

In all honesty, with the pint or two after the match strategy I find getting away a lot less stressful than it was at Wembley. Queuing for the Jubilee line all the way down Wembley Way was a right pain in the ass.

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That sounds a lot like my match day ritual.
Except I get up to the High Road about 3 hours before kick off.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Agreed . We can have (I think) 16 non football events every year - which will include NFL, rugby, boxing, music concerts etc.

And each of these will probably generate £2m+ on average each - mix of a flat fee/rental plus a share of catering, drinks etc. So probably £30m pa.

Not to mention inside the stadium is the 3rd largest conference & exhibition venue in London, which once out of covid will be a nice little earner effectively renting out the stadium space - and no doubt also using some of bars and eateries in the stadium or catering provided in the rooms. It wasn't operating for one season before covid stopped it - but its of a scale of business that might generate revenues of £50m-£100m a year, no idea what costs are but given its renting out space inside the stadium might well be generating another £25m+ cash profit a year.

So the non football side of the business will generate a healthy slug of money which can be used to both pay interest on the stadium and 'subsidise' the football side of Spurs (bond - debt - not repayable for some 20 years so no need to worry about capital repayments atm).

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I seem to recall estimates of a projected full seasons revenue were calculated to be in the region of £110m (i can't recall if these were calculated on what was confirmed events at the time of pre-covid or if it was calculated on assumed full capacity of events if all taken up).

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Let this sink in.

This generation of fans will support a club that plays in a stadium aprox 80% owned by the banks.
The next generation of fans will support a club that plays in a stadium that is aprox 79% owned by the banks.
The generation after that will support a club that plays in a stadium that is aprox 78% owned by the banks.

We didn't need a stadium like this. Is it great? Yes of course it is. Is it ours? No. The more I go the more I look around, the more I see a multi sport arena where Spurs are just one tenant. I've never been one of those fans frothing at the mouth about the red AIA sponsor, but seeing it constantly flashed around the 3 tiers of advertising banners in bright red, I can't help but think I'm sat at the Emirates. There's nothing in my field of view that makes me think Spurs.
There's no white anywhere. I's drab grey concrete and plain seats so dark they could be anything from black, to grey to blue. You wouldn't know unless you got up close.

I wouldn't be surprised if the bald cunt tried to pull us out of the Premier League and move us into the eastern conference of the MLS (sorry if it's not called that but you know what I mean)

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Yeah, takes me back to when I was a 6 or 7-year-old schoolboy, sifting through all those accounts working out at the time who owned White Hart Lane, what the plans for the East and West Stands were and whether I should support spurs because Rainham Steel had advertising hoardings around the pitch. I can tell you it nearly tipped me over the edge.

 

[Zomb]

I seem to recall estimates of a projected full seasons revenue were calculated to be in the region of £110m (i can't recall if these were calculated on what was confirmed events at the time of pre-covid or if it was calculated on assumed full capacity of events if all taken up).

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It was pro rata based on the matches played prior to Covid timed by the normal number of games

 

[Matt1882]

Yeah, takes me back to when I was a 6 or 7-year-old schoolboy, sifting through all those accounts working out at the time who owned White Hart Lane, what the plans for the East and West Stands were and whether I should support spurs because Rainham Steel had advertising hoardings around the pitch. I can tell you it nearly tipped me over the edge.

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Whilst it may be an unlikely scenario, coventry City were forced to ground share with Birmingham because their new stadium was/is owned by Wasps who kicked them out.

West Ham merely rent their stadium. I'd love to know what will happened when it falls into disrepair and they start arguing about who has to sort it.

Fastforward 50 years when ours is old and knackered again and almost none of it is paid off with the banks, how will we finance the updates?
I'll be dead (hopefully, don't wanna be 90 and shitting myself 3 times a day) so not my problem. But my grand kids, who no doubt will never have seen Spurs win a trophy, will wonder what grandpa Matt was thinking when he made the family Spurs fans

 

[Spursidol]

I seem to recall estimates of a projected full seasons revenue were calculated to be in the region of £110m (i can't recall if these were calculated on what was confirmed events at the time of pre-covid or if it was calculated on assumed full capacity of events if all taken up).

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Really difficult to tell as we have not really had a full year at the new stadium, but this was from Year to 30 June 2020 accounts :

Commercial revenues were £161.5m (2019: £135.2m) which started to show the potential from merchandise, third party events and sponsorship revenues derived from the THS.

https://thefightingcock.co.uk/forum/threads/tottenham-hotspur-financials-year-to-30-june-2020.38317/

The term '3rd party' events includes not only NFL/rugby/music/boxing but also exhibition and conference revenues, which are all included in the term 'Commercial Revenues' with sponsorships, merchandising, so really difficult to disaggregate revenues from the 16 nfl/boxing/music/rugby events we can hold each year, but I'd guess its got to be a lot less than 110m, given total was 161m.

We might need to wait for year end 30 June 2022 (might be released as late as 31 March 2023) to get a better feel, although we may get some feel from year to 30 June 2021 simply because there were no events - and thus looking at differences in commercial revenues between year to 30 June 2021 and year to 30 June 2020.

 

[SpiderSpurs]

Whilst it may be an unlikely scenario, coventry City were forced to ground share with Birmingham because their new stadium was/is owned by Wasps who kicked them out.

West Ham merely rent their stadium. I'd love to know what will happened when it falls into disrepair and they start arguing about who has to sort it.

Fastforward 50 years when ours is old and knackered again and almost none of it is paid off with the banks, how will we finance the updates?
I'll be dead (hopefully, don't wanna be 90 and shitting myself 3 times a day) so not my problem. But my grand kids, who no doubt will never have seen Spurs win a trophy, will wonder what grandpa Matt was thinking when he made the family Spurs fans

Click to shrink...

23 years...

Report reveals exactly how much Spurs owe in loan repayments for new stadium

Spurs are said to be in a precarious financial position due to the COVID-19 pandemic, with the club still owing a substantial debt on the...

www.spurs-web.com

 

[Matt1882]

23 years...

Report reveals exactly how much Spurs owe in loan repayments for new stadium

Spurs are said to be in a precarious financial position due to the COVID-19 pandemic, with the club still owing a substantial debt on the...

www.spurs-web.com

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That article is from 2020. Hasn't there been a refinancing of the loan(s) that meant a far smaller repayment every year? IE not really bringing it down much.

The whole point of the stadium is to make money all year round. I just hope it works. I'm keen to find out what we actually got for the NFL and boxing so far. But more importantly, where will that money go?

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Whilst it may be an unlikely scenario, coventry City were forced to ground share with Birmingham because their new stadium was/is owned by Wasps who kicked them out.

West Ham merely rent their stadium. I'd love to know what will happened when it falls into disrepair and they start arguing about who has to sort it.

Fastforward 50 years when ours is old and knackered again and almost none of it is paid off with the banks, how will we finance the updates?
I'll be dead (hopefully, don't wanna be 90 and shitting myself 3 times a day) so not my problem. But my grand kids, who no doubt will never have seen Spurs win a trophy, will wonder what grandpa Matt was thinking when he made the family Spurs fans

Click to shrink...

It’s a mortgage mate, financed at some of the lowest interest rates available fixed for 25yrs. Making the repayments of the 9th richest club in world football very manageable. Our repayments as a % of turnover is about 1000 times less than we had against our West Stand rebuild in the early 80’s.

I’ve no issues with our financial structuring at the Club (other than the COVID implications, but we were in better shape than 90% of the rest of most other clubs).

 

[Brian Fantana]

I can't speak for halftime because I don't tend to bother with a halftime drink. Let's face it, even when Spurs are shit I don't see the point in rushing down and throwing a pint down my neck to make it back up to my seat. Each to their own, but I arrive about an hour before KO and have a couple before the game. I've never experienced slow service before a match. If I leave my seat at half time, it's to go to the toilet.

At fulltime, you're right, the queue for the Tube is pretty awful. My strategy with that is to stay in the stadium and have a pint or two as the bigger bars stay open for a fair bit after the game ends with live music. Again, no problems with the speed of service. A couple of postmatch pints and the queue to Seven Sisters is all but gone.

In all honesty, with the pint or two after the match strategy I find getting away a lot less stressful than it was at Wembley. Queuing for the Jubilee line all the way down Wembley Way was a right pain in the ass.

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Agree, the transport is fine for the stadium. As for ubers, it’s never been possible to get one post game in my experience, black cabs yeah but not Uber. Personally if I was going to a new stadium which had multiple transport links I would definitely research them before I went. The underground would have been open after the fight for example.

 

[Brian Fantana]

Really difficult to tell as we have not really had a full year at the new stadium, but this was from Year to 30 June 2020 accounts :

Commercial revenues were £161.5m (2019: £135.2m) which started to show the potential from merchandise, third party events and sponsorship revenues derived from the THS.

https://thefightingcock.co.uk/forum/threads/tottenham-hotspur-financials-year-to-30-june-2020.38317/

The term '3rd party' events includes not only NFL/rugby/music/boxing but also exhibition and conference revenues, which are all included in the term 'Commercial Revenues' with sponsorships, merchandising, so really difficult to disaggregate revenues from the 16 nfl/boxing/music/rugby events we can hold each year, but I'd guess its got to be a lot less than 110m, given total was 161m.

We might need to wait for year end 30 June 2022 (might be released as late as 31 March 2023) to get a better feel, although we may get some feel from year to 30 June 2021 simply because there were no events - and thus looking at differences in commercial revenues between year to 30 June 2021 and year to 30 June 2020.

Click to shrink...

From memory, whatever Man Utd made in a normal year (2019 - £110.8 million) from match day revenue we were due to either equal or just surpass. I read that on a Swiss ramble tweet during lockdown.

 

[Spursidol]

Whilst it may be an unlikely scenario, coventry City were forced to ground share with Birmingham because their new stadium was/is owned by Wasps who kicked them out.

West Ham merely rent their stadium. I'd love to know what will happened when it falls into disrepair and they start arguing about who has to sort it.

Fastforward 50 years when ours is old and knackered again and almost none of it is paid off with the banks, how will we finance the updates?
I'll be dead (hopefully, don't wanna be 90 and shitting myself 3 times a day) so not my problem. But my grand kids, who no doubt will never have seen Spurs win a trophy, will wonder what grandpa Matt was thinking when he made the family Spurs fans

Click to shrink...

Very likely most of the bonds will have been bought back before the bonds mature in 30 years time, possibly at a discount as the bond interest rates are at an historic low.

Stadium will be throwing off a lot of cash from 3rd party events, and whilst Spurs may re-invest some of this into squad for next 5 or so years, after that there may well be 20 odd years where up to £50m pa will be available to buy back bonds.

Any part of bonds not paid back will be easy to refinance, albeit likely as higher interest rates as I doubt interest rates will be as low as they have been in recent years in the future.

And Spurs will still own the ground/freehold under the stadium whereas renter Wham will not.



Just to put owning of freehold into context - a typical big flat or 3/4 bed house might have a building cost of say £120k, although market value will be a multiple of that - the difference between building cost and market value is mainly the value of the freehold.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Very likely most of the bonds will have been bought back before the bonds mature in 30 years time, possibly at a discount as the bond interest rates are at an historic low.

Stadium will be throwing off a lot of cash from 3rd party events, and whilst Spurs may re-invest some of this into squad for next 5 or so years, after that there may well be 20 odd years where up to £50m pa will be available to buy back bonds.

Any part of bonds not paid back will be easy to refinance, albeit likely as higher interest rates as I doubt interest rates will be as low as they have been in recent years in the future.

And Spurs will still own the ground/freehold under the stadium whereas renter Wham will not.



Just to put owning of freehold into context - a typical big flat or 3/4 bed house might have a building cost of say £120k, although market value will be a multiple of that - the difference between building cost and market value is mainly the value of the freehold.

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And we have approx 50% equity in it already! (Difficult to be accurate given everything lumped into the same pot - training ground and stadium)

 

[Spursidol]

From memory, whatever Man Utd made in a normal year (2019 - £110.8 million) from match day revenue we were due to either equal or just surpass. I read that on a Swiss ramble tweet during lockdown.

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Yup that kind of comparison in the thread linked in the post you responded to,

 

[Spursidol]

And we have approx 50% equity in it already! (Difficult to be accurate given everything lumped into the same pot - training ground and stadium)

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Agree 50% of total net asset value already paid off

But a lot of freehold cost is included at very historic cost (some going back to circa 1900 when WHL built) and even land bought for the new stadium often bought at 'cheap ' prices, so 'freehold land value' at current land values is not reflected in the clubs accounts.

 

[Matt1882]

It’s a mortgage mate, financed at some of the lowest interest rates available fixed for 25yrs. Making the repayments of the 9th richest club in world football very manageable. Our repayments as a % of turnover is about 1000 times less than we had against our West Stand rebuild in the early 80’s.

I’ve no issues with our financial structuring at the Club (other than the COVID implications, but we were in better shape than 90% of the rest of most other clubs).

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As long as we're actually paying it all down I'll be happy. But if we're just refinancing it regularly to keep the minimum annual payments down it can't be goof for the future.

 

[Zomb]

As long as we're actually paying it all down I'll be happy. But if we're just refinancing it regularly to keep the minimum annual payments down it can't be goof for the future.

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We are paying some, deferring some

 

[Zomb]

Agree 50% of total net asset value already paid off

But a lot of freehold cost is included at very historic cost (some going back to circa 1900 when WHL built) and even land bought for the new stadium often bought at 'cheap ' prices, so 'freehold land value' at current land values is not reflected in the clubs accounts.

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Does that mean the freehold cost is higher ergo we have actually higher equity? Why would that be, surely we would want the % as high as poss (or is it the opposite and it looks better on paper)