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Management What proves managerial competence?

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A serious question because it tends to somewhat beat me if I am being entirely honest.

I have my ideas, but with all things being equal, just how do you make the assessment, on good, bad or indifferent?

Was Pochettino for example the beneficiary of having some excellent players at his disposal or do we really believe he would be doing so much better with our current squad? Flip that round and would Postecoglou be so much worse with the players Pochettino had by comparison? And if yes/no, why?

I am genuinely intrigued, because at present, I look at some of the likely managerial options and think which one should it be,because they will definitely provide that, whatever that may be.

Baffling.
Can I have a go because I realised that I have very early history of questioning the running of the team. Firstly can we talk about Coaching competence not managerial. As to my mind coaching speaks to the the football strategy training and tactical preparation of the first team and it's resources.

I questioned the coaching of Jose Mourinho when we were top of the league. Much to the consternation and anger of lots folks on this forum. I questioned the coaching of Ange Postecoglou after the Chelsea game (whilst still being optimistic about the progress). In both cases sustainability of the approach was central to my concerns under Jose the lack of possession of the football and inviting the amount of pressure we did whilst being hugely reliant on converting the few chances we made. It could never last

Under Ange the built in acceptance that we would concede the amount of chances and even goals as a matter of course was incredibly naive, and in a league with as many talented forwards as the EPL was suicidal.

Then there were issue with Ange beyond the tactical that were about ethos 'we don't stop' is frankly foolish in an era where the calender both international and domestic has never been more taxing. It's also utterly at odds with the kind of squad Levy will allow to be built.

Then you can simply look for the signs of what poor coaching looks like. Spurs under Ange start games woefully slowly poor focus little or no tactical adjustment made for an oponents strengths. The marking at corners, the confusion between zonal and man to man responsibilities. The lack of clearly coached set peice and dead-ball routines.

Honestly I could go on but it's too long a post already. Football isn't as complicated as some hipster will have you believe but if you tune out the spin and focus on what you are watching basic operational certainly in the players, their comfort and confidence in where and when they should be in and out of possession speaks directly to the work on the training ground. Five million a year to watch teams beat you the same way repeatedly tells you what's happening.

Pochettino and his team of coaches work was evident to me Jose and Ange Postecoglou lack of diligence was also evident. I also ducked but will address the human element. HR the way you treat people. Mourinho flaws are manifest but sadly Postecoglou has been a huge disappointment. I'll simply say Djed Spence was failed by him in a very shocking and distasteful way and he then told lies and played to the worse kinds of dog whistles that young men like Spence already have to contend with. It was a huge red flag. I could also talk about the goalkeepers the situation is so amateur its baffling.
 
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Can I have a go because I realised that I have very early history of questioning the running of the team. Firstly can we talk about Coaching competence not managerial. As to my mind coaching speaks to the the football strategy training and tactical preparation of the first team and it's resources.

I questioned the coaching of Jose Mourinho when we were top of the league. Much to the consternation and anger of lots folks on this forum. I questioned the coaching of Ange Postecoglou after the Chelsea game (whilst still being optimistic about the progress). In both cases sustainability of the approach was central to my concerns under Jose the lack of possession of the football and inviting the amount of pressure we did whilst being hugely reliant on converting the few chances we made. It could never last

Under Ange the built in acceptance that we would concede the amount of chances and even goals as a matter of course was incredibly naive, and in a league with as many talented forwards as the EPL was suicidal.

Then there were issue with Ange beyond the tactical that were about ethos 'we don't stop' is frankly foolish in an era where the calender both international and domestic has never been more taxing. It's also utterly at odds with the kind of squad Levy will allow to be built.

Then you can simply look for the signs of what poor coaching looks like. Spurs under Ange start games woefully slowly poor focus little or no tactical adjustment made for an oponents strengths. The marking at corners, the confusion between zonal and man to man responsibilities. The lack of clearly coached set peice and dead-ball routines.

Honestly I could go on but it's too long a post already. Football isn't as complicated as some hipster will have you believe but if you tune out the spin and focus on what you are watching basic operational certainly in the players, there comfort and confidence in where and when they should be in and out of possession speaks directly to the work on the training ground. Five million a year to watch teams beat you the same way repeatedly tells you what's happening.

Pochettino and his team of coaches work was evident to me Jose and Ange Postecoglou lack of diligence was also evident.

You're so awesome, maybe we should hire you as a Sporting Dir to monetise your sills as opposed to sitting on your laptop all day speaking crap on a forum
 
Can I have a go because I realised that I have very early history of questioning the running of the team. Firstly can we talk about Coaching competence not managerial. As to my mind coaching speaks to the the football strategy training and tactical preparation of the first team and it's resources.

I questioned the coaching of Jose Mourinho when we were top of the league. Much to the consternation and anger of lots folks on this forum. I questioned the coaching of Ange Postecoglou after the Chelsea game (whilst still being optimistic about the progress). In both cases sustainability of the approach was central to my concerns under Jose the lack of possession of the football and inviting the amount of pressure we did whilst being hugely reliant on converting the few chances we made. It could never last

Under Ange the built in acceptance that we would concede the amount of chances and even goals as a matter of course was incredibly naive, and in a league with as many talented forwards as the EPL was suicidal.

Then there were issue with Ange beyond the tactical that were about ethos 'we don't stop' is frankly foolish in an era where the calender both international and domestic has never been more taxing. It's also utterly at odds with the kind of squad Levy will allow to be built.

Then you can simply look for the signs of what poor coaching looks like. Spurs under Ange start games woefully slowly poor focus little or no tactical adjustment made for an oponents strengths. The marking at corners, the confusion between zonal and man to man responsibilities. The lack of clearly coached set peice and dead-ball routines.

Honestly I could go on but it's too long a post already. Football isn't as complicated as some hipster will have you believe but if you tune out the spin and focus on what you are watching basic operational certainly in the players, there comfort and confidence in where and when they should be in and out of possession speaks directly to the work on the training ground. Five million a year to watch teams beat you the same way repeatedly tells you what's happening.

Pochettino and his team of coaches work was evident to me Jose and Ange Postecoglou lack of diligence was also evident. I also ducked but will address the human element. HR the way you treat people. Mourinho flaws are manifest but sadly Postecoglou has been a huge disappointment. I'll simply say Djed Spence was failed by him in a very shocking and distasteful way and he then told lies and played to the worse kinds of dog whistles that young men like Spence already have to contend with. It was a huge red flag. I could also talk about the goalkeepers the situation is so amateur its baffling.

Really interesting.
 
Need a coach who can develop players and tactically astute. Sporting director wise can find hidden gems and can make our academy world class. Said many times club should visit Barcelona and ajax to see how their academies work. They are the benchmark imo.
 
Barring a few exceptional cases where a change in the ownership leads to new filthy rich owners pumping money to the club at will ( Chelsea, PSG, Man City), clubs that see a sharp upturn in their fortunes do so thanks to a managerial change.

Players that were previously underwhelming under other managers start playing at a much higher level, most of the new signings hit the ground running under the new manager and so on. And ideally, these trends revert back to their original state as soon as that manager leaves the club.

Pochettino receives the -deserved- credit he does because that is what happened under him. He benefited neither from a change in the ownership nor from a squad overhaul, yet the signs of improvement were there from day one. And he went on to build on them for consecutive seasons, proving that it was not a fluke.

It was like a laboratory experiment where all the other possibly relevant variables that can contribute to success were held constant, with him being the only source of change and improvement in the club. If you're going to make a case for the impact of a manager, it doesn't get much better than this.
 
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Can I have a go because I realised that I have very early history of questioning the running of the team. Firstly can we talk about Coaching competence not managerial. As to my mind coaching speaks to the the football strategy training and tactical preparation of the first team and it's resources.

I questioned the coaching of Jose Mourinho when we were top of the league. Much to the consternation and anger of lots folks on this forum. I questioned the coaching of Ange Postecoglou after the Chelsea game (whilst still being optimistic about the progress). In both cases sustainability of the approach was central to my concerns under Jose the lack of possession of the football and inviting the amount of pressure we did whilst being hugely reliant on converting the few chances we made. It could never last

Under Ange the built in acceptance that we would concede the amount of chances and even goals as a matter of course was incredibly naive, and in a league with as many talented forwards as the EPL was suicidal.

Then there were issue with Ange beyond the tactical that were about ethos 'we don't stop' is frankly foolish in an era where the calender both international and domestic has never been more taxing. It's also utterly at odds with the kind of squad Levy will allow to be built.

Then you can simply look for the signs of what poor coaching looks like. Spurs under Ange start games woefully slowly poor focus little or no tactical adjustment made for an oponents strengths. The marking at corners, the confusion between zonal and man to man responsibilities. The lack of clearly coached set peice and dead-ball routines.

Honestly I could go on but it's too long a post already. Football isn't as complicated as some hipster will have you believe but if you tune out the spin and focus on what you are watching basic operational certainly in the players, there comfort and confidence in where and when they should be in and out of possession speaks directly to the work on the training ground. Five million a year to watch teams beat you the same way repeatedly tells you what's happening.

Pochettino and his team of coaches work was evident to me Jose and Ange Postecoglou lack of diligence was also evident. I also ducked but will address the human element. HR the way you treat people. Mourinho flaws are manifest but sadly Postecoglou has been a huge disappointment. I'll simply say Djed Spence was failed by him in a very shocking and distasteful way and he then told lies and played to the worse kinds of dog whistles that young men like Spence already have to contend with. It was a huge red flag. I could also talk about the goalkeepers the situation is so amateur its baffling.

I want to wait and see how other posters respond to this. It needs and merits digestion.

For me what it also articulates is that Europa win or not, a change of manager is necessary. In fact essential.
 
As a fanbase we demand more than managerial competence, don't we? We want wins delivered with attacking flair. It's achieving both that continues to prove to be a bit tricky. Most recently we saw it with Poch, which is why a lot of people (me included) want him back. It's like 'unfinished business'.
Not really, everyone was happy when we were winning under Conte and Jose until we didn't. We just need a long term winner that can improve the team year by year.
 
A serious question because it tends to somewhat beat me if I am being entirely honest.

I have my ideas, but with all things being equal, just how do you make the assessment, on good, bad or indifferent?

Was Pochettino for example the beneficiary of having some excellent players at his disposal or do we really believe he would be doing so much better with our current squad? Flip that round and would Postecoglou be so much worse with the players Pochettino had by comparison? And if yes/no, why?

I am genuinely intrigued, because at present, I look at some of the likely managerial options and think which one should it be,because they will definitely provide that, whatever that may be.

Baffling.
Pochettino is a very good study because he had an idea in place and was willing to sacrifice the players status quo to make it so, he bought in Mason and Bentaleb as his midfielders despite having more established players at the club
(Dembele was here,but didn't warrant his status until his 2nd season under Pochettino and played as a RW inside forward under him at first)

He phased out senior players and bought in players from the cold ie Danny Rose, also utilised players like Chadli and Lamela to good effect.

Also got the best out of Lloris, Walker, Vertonghen, Dembele Eriksen and Harry Kane. (The spine of his team, which were all here before him but wasn't the players they were, until he came here)

Add in the likes of Sonny, Dele, Dier, Wanyama, Alderweireld,.who were all hit transfers and he had a very good 11+ 2or3.(We ultimately needed more)

Basically I think it's the fact that good managers can make the team better than the sum of it parts and that's really the bottom line.
 
That's all luvly fluff that has been said - from my point of view it's literally one word.

TROPHIES
Tennis Attention GIF by Wimbledon


The rest is nice player evolution, tactical prowess etc etc etc but it comes down to Trophies for me.
 
Not really, everyone was happy when we were winning under Conte and Jose until we didn't. We just need a long term winner that can improve the team year by year.
No, a few folk complain about the football under Jose on here and in the stadium. Not under Conte thought. I think we were all impressed quite early and then he just seemed to lose energy and the side got very turgid.
 
Pochettino is a very good study because he had an idea in place and was willing to sacrifice the players status quo to make it so, he bought in Mason and Bentaleb as his midfielders despite having more established players at the club
(Dembele was here,but didn't warrant his status until his 2nd season under Pochettino and played as a RW inside forward under him at first)

He phased out senior players and bought in players from the cold ie Danny Rose, also utilised players like Chadli and Lamela to good effect.

Also got the best out of Lloris, Walker, Vertonghen, Dembele Eriksen and Harry Kane. (The spine of his team, which were all here before him but wasn't the players they were, until he came here)

Add in the likes of Sonny, Dele, Dier, Wanyama, Alderweireld,.who were all hit transfers and he had a very good 11+ 2or3.(We ultimately needed more)

Basically I think it's the fact that good managers can make the team better than the sum of it parts and that's really the bottom line.
And you miss his massive improvement of Rose and Walker
 
1. Being able to get a tune out of a struggling group.

2. Building and improving the first team and squad.

Redknapp did both. Sacked for finishing 4th. What a fucking joke.
 
There is no concrete way to ever be sure. Its opinion based and everyone has an opinion these days.

Pep is the greatest manager I've ever seen but he's always had the best players to play to suit his style. Now he's going through his first major blip as a manager and looks like he has no plan B because he never needed one before.

I think managers tend to be overrated and get too much credit when their teams are doing well and visa versa once their teams do badly. We live in an extremely reactionary world. Pep changed football and now there is a huge emphasis in play style and putting style and performance over grinding out results and playing badly. Coaches like Mourinho have been nearly fazed out as they don't have the same possession based structures and style.

Mourinho is a great example too. Brilliant manager. His teams would go to places, park the buss and grind out a 0-0 draw away from home. He was notorious for this, especially at Inter. If the game ends 0-0 or Inter nick a 1-0 win, then the media label it a "Mourinho masterclass". However, if his team concede, then they'd often lose without have a shot on goal all game, and in them games Mourinho would be slaughtered and called clueless. We saw this recently with Arteta. They were going to the Etihad and playing for draws, when he got them it would be called a masterclass. When he didn't get them they'd be blasted. Fine margins between a masterclass and being totally clueless.

Our 3-2 win away at the Etihad 3 years ago is another great example. For me, Harry Kane put in one of the greatest ever Premier league performances that day and single handily won us the game! We basically parked the bus that day and just hoped to get lucky. They had 21 shots, we had 6. We were just so clinical with Kane that we won the game. People still refer to that as a Conte masterclass.
Waffle

"There is no concrete way to ever be sure. Its opinion based and everyone has an opinion these days."

Yes there is - It's called TROPHIES!

Sport Win GIF by Holler Studios
 
This thread has made me realise...

No one said TROPHIES...

A Team plays to Win!

What is success??? top 4??? Top 8??? a Final??? NO

It's Trophies...

Why is this an alien concept in this thread???
 
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It's not hard to see why many people would welcome Pochettino's return at this stage. Last season he turned Chelsea from a complete shambles into a cohesive attacking force, brought about the emergence of Cole Palmer and got them back into the top 6 after the horrific Lampard and Potter period. One has to ask whether it is merely coincidence that the best results Maresca has had for Chelsea came in the earliest part of his tenure, and the longer he has the squad, the worse their performances get. There is clearly still a very high quality coach there in Pochettino, you can't really argue with the results. People bringing up his time at PSG as a failure, well then every coach they have hired since the Qataris came in is also a failure, and it's a rather prestigious list.
Had he stayed at the Chavs and built a legacy there it would have been very hard ever to revive his image as a Spurs icon, but the fact he fucked it off after 1 season and has pretty much said because it didn't feel right to him (I can think of no sporting reason why a manager who quantifiably massively improved the team over his first season and had them back into European contention would be sacked, as well as finally making Enzo Fernandez look like being worth half of what they paid for him), gives him the leeway to come back. If he'd be willing to immediately fuck the US off for a return to us in the summer it would only make me even fonder of the idea.
He didn't win a damn Trophy!

soo much waffle into a sentence...HE DIDN'T WIN A TROPHY...
 
Competent is having a squad where it should be.
Incompetent is having it below.
Exceptional is getting more out of it than the individuals suggest.

3 names in the PL right now.

Postecoglou
Arteta
Iraola

1 of each. Where does each one rank.
Fukk all three of them - Iraola aint gonna do shit, I'm sick of hearing this guy as a 'possible' replacement.

None of them have won trophies...except Lego Hed but not even Assna fans count that & he's been hanging onto that since it was held...

WHAT ARE WE DOING HERE???

I don't want him - if you do I have no idea why...
 
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As a fanbase we demand more than managerial competence, don't we? We want wins delivered with attacking flair. It's achieving both that continues to prove to be a bit tricky. Most recently we saw it with Poch, which is why a lot of people (me included) want him back. It's like 'unfinished business'.
No I want Trophies...

He didn't get us there nor has he before or after with other teams...

I lived it fukk Poch piss off & Conte those days are gone...WE LOST - Am I the only one that remembers this???

I want nothing more than a Trophy - 3 Domestic & 1 European A SEASON...what are talking about?

I don't care how 'pretty' the football is - I'm not like most Real Madrid fans sexy football can be fukked off if we win Trophies...
 
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