Management What proves managerial competence?

[guyt2030]

The problem with the so called system managers is that this clouds the issue as they have a way of playing that requires a specific squad type. Pep for example I think would be a disaster at this club, we would be not much better than Ange getting hit on the counter each game with players lacking the technical skills to carry out his instructions. If we remove these and look at most others.

1 do they get the most of out the team
2 Do they improve players
3 can they adapt tactically

Pochettino is the best manager under ENIC for player improve by a country mile, almost every player improved often dramatically under him. Harry was probably the best at mixing up tactically, he just had a great sense of how to set up against opponents. Both of them for me showed decent competence.

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He didn't win anything though mah dude...

0 Trophies...

I was there during that CL Final...y'know we lost that right?

Competence is trophies for me nothing more nothing less...the rest is in club fluff as a fan I want our club to lift a Trophy.

Harry didn't either...

 

[guyt2030]

Can I have a go because I realised that I have very early history of questioning the running of the team. Firstly can we talk about Coaching competence not managerial. As to my mind coaching speaks to the the football strategy training and tactical preparation of the first team and it's resources.

I questioned the coaching of Jose Mourinho when we were top of the league. Much to the consternation and anger of lots folks on this forum. I questioned the coaching of Ange Postecoglou after the Chelsea game (whilst still being optimistic about the progress). In both cases sustainability of the approach was central to my concerns under Jose the lack of possession of the football and inviting the amount of pressure we did whilst being hugely reliant on converting the few chances we made. It could never last

Under Ange the built in acceptance that we would concede the amount of chances and even goals as a matter of course was incredibly naive, and in a league with as many talented forwards as the EPL was suicidal.

Then there were issue with Ange beyond the tactical that were about ethos 'we don't stop' is frankly foolish in an era where the calender both international and domestic has never been more taxing. It's also utterly at odds with the kind of squad Levy will allow to be built.

Then you can simply look for the signs of what poor coaching looks like. Spurs under Ange start games woefully slowly poor focus little or no tactical adjustment made for an oponents strengths. The marking at corners, the confusion between zonal and man to man responsibilities. The lack of clearly coached set peice and dead-ball routines.

Honestly I could go on but it's too long a post already. Football isn't as complicated as some hipster will have you believe but if you tune out the spin and focus on what you are watching basic operational certainly in the players, their comfort and confidence in where and when they should be in and out of possession speaks directly to the work on the training ground. Five million a year to watch teams beat you the same way repeatedly tells you what's happening.

Pochettino and his team of coaches work was evident to me Jose and Ange Postecoglou lack of diligence was also evident. I also ducked but will address the human element. HR the way you treat people. Mourinho flaws are manifest but sadly Postecoglou has been a huge disappointment. I'll simply say Djed Spence was failed by him in a very shocking and distasteful way and he then told lies and played to the worse kinds of dog whistles that young men like Spence already have to contend with. It was a huge red flag. I could also talk about the goalkeepers the situation is so amateur its baffling.

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"Football isn't as complicated as some hipster will have you believe"

yes I know it's about winning Trophies.

 

[TottsAmazeballs]

The problem with the so called system managers is that this clouds the issue as they have a way of playing that requires a specific squad type. Pep for example I think would be a disaster at this club, we would be not much better than Ange getting hit on the counter each game with players lacking the technical skills to carry out his instructions. If we remove these and look at most others.

1 do they get the most of out the team
2 Do they improve players
3 can they adapt tactically

Pochettino is the best manager under ENIC for player improve by a country mile, almost every player improved often dramatically under him. Harry was probably the best at mixing up tactically, he just had a great sense of how to set up against opponents. Both of them for me showed decent competence.

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Agreed. Just reminds me how shit our management team is. We need better coaches. Mason is a nice guy, a fair coach, but not at the level we need. Everyone else is more shit than him.

 

[Boltonspur]

Can I have a go because I realised that I have very early history of questioning the running of the team. Firstly can we talk about Coaching competence not managerial. As to my mind coaching speaks to the the football strategy training and tactical preparation of the first team and it's resources.

I questioned the coaching of Jose Mourinho when we were top of the league. Much to the consternation and anger of lots folks on this forum. I questioned the coaching of Ange Postecoglou after the Chelsea game (whilst still being optimistic about the progress). In both cases sustainability of the approach was central to my concerns under Jose the lack of possession of the football and inviting the amount of pressure we did whilst being hugely reliant on converting the few chances we made. It could never last

Under Ange the built in acceptance that we would concede the amount of chances and even goals as a matter of course was incredibly naive, and in a league with as many talented forwards as the EPL was suicidal.

Then there were issue with Ange beyond the tactical that were about ethos 'we don't stop' is frankly foolish in an era where the calender both international and domestic has never been more taxing. It's also utterly at odds with the kind of squad Levy will allow to be built.

Then you can simply look for the signs of what poor coaching looks like. Spurs under Ange start games woefully slowly poor focus little or no tactical adjustment made for an oponents strengths. The marking at corners, the confusion between zonal and man to man responsibilities. The lack of clearly coached set peice and dead-ball routines.

Honestly I could go on but it's too long a post already. Football isn't as complicated as some hipster will have you believe but if you tune out the spin and focus on what you are watching basic operational certainly in the players, their comfort and confidence in where and when they should be in and out of possession speaks directly to the work on the training ground. Five million a year to watch teams beat you the same way repeatedly tells you what's happening.

Pochettino and his team of coaches work was evident to me Jose and Ange Postecoglou lack of diligence was also evident. I also ducked but will address the human element. HR the way you treat people. Mourinho flaws are manifest but sadly Postecoglou has been a huge disappointment. I'll simply say Djed Spence was failed by him in a very shocking and distasteful way and he then told lies and played to the worse kinds of dog whistles that young men like Spence already have to contend with. It was a huge red flag. I could also talk about the goalkeepers the situation is so amateur its baffling.

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Clownshoe managers since Poch.

 

[Tomo]

He didn't win anything though mah dude...

0 Trophies...

I was there during that CL Final...y'know we lost that right?

Competence is trophies for me nothing more nothing less...the rest is in club fluff as a fan I want our club to lift a Trophy.

Harry didn't either...

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Football is so much more than trophies and certainly more than League Cups. Woolwich have won fuck all last few years but nobody would swap our place with them.

 

[Skippa18]

"Football isn't as complicated as some hipster will have you believe"

yes I know it's about winning Trophies.

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It is about winning trophies but it doesn't always prove managerial competence.

A manager can win a cup and be sacked because of poor leagues position, happens quite often.

Or what about a teams expectation did Sam allardyce do a good job at Bolton?......in your argument, no because he didn't win a trophy.

Or managers like, Howe and McKenna who promoted their teams through the football league...are they not good managers

Eddie Howe has since won a trophy but I think what he did at Bournemouth was harder to do than winning carabao cup with this Newcastle team.

 

[Shotgunofmichalebrow]

"Football isn't as complicated as some hipster will have you believe"

yes I know it's about winning Trophies.

Click to shrink...

No, that's the objective. It is the measure of coaching competence. That was the question the poster asked and was the one I answered. Ramos won the League cup, Dematteo won the champions League, he also took WBA down. Ange could win 5 games and the Ueffa cup he'd still be a buffoon. You are mixing up what we want from football and the question he asked. Why don't you ask your own question?

 

[Legacy Lilywhite]

Poch and Harry are the two managers who materially improved the team over time. To say they weren’t successful because they didn’t win a trophy is chav style lunacy.

Taking Harry as an example, he improved us markedly in his first year, got us our first CL qualification, and had us playing some incredible football in all of his 4 seasons with us. If we’d bothered to make decent signings for his final one we might actually have got some silverware.

Levy has always struggled to invest properly when we’re on the up. He’s the main issue. If you don’t invest well when you’re doing well, then the team eventually gets over stretched and exhausted, starts to crash and then you have to rebuild. But what Harry and Poch did with pretty slim squads was clearly progress.

I suppose some people see the improvement in e.g. Brighton or Fulham in recent years as failure as they haven’t won a trophy. Honestly. There’s a tasteless, plastic club in West London where you can dance around and pretend you’re part of it if you’re that desperate.

 

[Spurs_1987]

Consistency (good consistency) and being adaptable.

Ange has consistency, but in a bad way, he refuses to adapt our play for different teams, which makes us very predictable and frankly easy to play against.

I would think he's exactly the type of coach you'd want to face as a top manager as you can easily tell your squad how to deal with him.

Admittedly even top managers have that problem eventually, look at Mourinho for example, eventually people sussed him out and he hasn't come close to hitting the heights he did at Porto and his first stint as Chavs boss aside from the CL win with Inter.

Of course we have the Levy issue, and that's a big one, but you CAN succeed under him as Poch, Redknapp and even Jol before have proven, after all, he's not the one picking the team and making the tactics.

 

[Matt1882]

Fukk all three of them - Iraola aint gonna do shit, I'm sick of hearing this guy as a 'possible' replacement.

None of them have won trophies...except Lego Hed but not even Assna fans count that & he's been hanging onto that since it was held...

WHAT ARE WE DOING HERE???

I don't want him - if you do I have no idea why...

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Conte and Mourinho have won trophies and what did they do?
We just need someone that has us at the upper end of the table. That's it. Ideally someone with no ego and room to improve themself as well as the players.

 

[Matt1882]

Poch and Harry are the two managers who materially improved the team over time. To say they weren’t successful because they didn’t win a trophy is chav style lunacy.

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It's getting daft how people link trophies to success.
That LITERALLY makes Ramos our most successful manager of the last 25 years.
and that is DUMB.

 

[Matt1882]

Linking a managers success to trophies is like saying Harry Kane is shit because he has 0 trophies, whereas as with 5 titles, 2 FA Cups, 2 league cups and 2 Champions Leagues, Wes Brown is one of the games greatest ever players.

Think about that for a moment.

 

[Kosher Kid]

Daniel Levy not giving you a job or turning him down.

It's the tried and tested method.

 

[Notabadsquad]

No, that's the objective. It is the measure of coaching competence. That was the question the poster asked and was the one I answered. Ramos won the League cup, Dematteo won the champions League, he also took WBA down. Ange could win 5 games and the Ueffa cup he'd still be a buffoon. You are mixing up what we want from football and the question he asked. Why don't you ask your own question?

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Bang on the money, which is what some others are also mixing-up but which also makes it very hard.

 

[Notabadsquad]

Linking a managers success to trophies is like saying Harry Kane is shit because he has 0 trophies, whereas as with 5 titles, 2 FA Cups, 2 league cups and 2 Champions Leagues, Wes Brown is one of the games greatest ever players.

Think about that for a moment.

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Very good. One flaw, are you seriously telling me Wes Brown isn't one of the world's greatest ever players!! He was decent however.

 

[Tomo]

Poch and Harry are the two managers who materially improved the team over time. To say they weren’t successful because they didn’t win a trophy is chav style lunacy.

Taking Harry as an example, he improved us markedly in his first year, got us our first CL qualification, and had us playing some incredible football in all of his 4 seasons with us. If we’d bothered to make decent signings for his final one we might actually have got some silverware.

Levy has always struggled to invest properly when we’re on the up. He’s the main issue. If you don’t invest well when you’re doing well, then the team eventually gets over stretched and exhausted, starts to crash and then you have to rebuild. But what Harry and Poch did with pretty slim squads was clearly progress.

I suppose some people see the improvement in e.g. Brighton or Fulham in recent years as failure as they haven’t won a trophy. Honestly. There’s a tasteless, plastic club in West London where you can dance around and pretend you’re part of it if you’re that desperate.

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I remember under Redknapp felt like 2-3 top signings and we would be in a great chance of winning the league and nothing happened. We never strengthen from a position of strength. It’s always wait till it falls apart then panic. Football is all about momentum, Levy has been a football chairman for over 20 years and still hasn’t learned the basics.

 

[Matt1882]

Very good. One flaw, are you seriously telling me Wes Brown isn't one of the world's greatest ever players!! He was decent however.

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He made up the numbers well.
He's very highly decorated though. Far more so than players who are infinitely more talented.
You can throw the likes of John O'Shea in there too. You don't always need 11+ worldies to be a great team.
Trophies aren't the only measure of what makes players or coaches good.

Another example
Blackburn 94/95
Tony Gale.
Jason Wilcox,
Stuart Ripley.
And a host of others who did fuck all else, have a PL title to their name. Mainly because Shearer and Sutton scored 50 goals between them.

 

[Matt1882]

I remember under Redknapp felt like 2-3 top signings and we would be in a great chance of winning the league and nothing happened. We never strengthen from a position of strength. It’s always wait till it falls apart then panic.

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A few signings and Jol could have cracked the top 4
A few signigs and Poch could have won the lot.
A few of the correct signings and even Conte could have had a title push IMO. I didn't mind Perisic or Bissouma. But WTF did we piss £60m on Richarlison for? In addition to those all we signed was Udogie to go on loan. Forster on a free, Spence to be ignored, and a bunch of kids.

There's a theme, isn't there.

So close

Yet

 

[Don Pedro]

Waffle

"There is no concrete way to ever be sure. Its opinion based and everyone has an opinion these days."

Yes there is - It's called TROPHIES!

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So by your logic... Juande Ramos is the best manager you've seen in the Spurs dugout for the last 25 years? He was a more competent manager than Poch and did a much better job at Spurs?

 

[Notabadsquad]

He made up the numbers well.
He's very highly decorated though. Far more so than players who are infinitely more talented.
You can throw the likes of John O'Shea in there too. You don't always need 11+ worldies to be a great team.
Trophies aren't the only measure of what makes players or coaches good.

Another example
Blackburn 94/95
Tony Gale.
Jason Wilcox,
Stuart Ripley.
And a host of others who did fuck all else, have a PL title to their name. Mainly because Shearer and Sutton scored 50 goals between them.

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Yep, true but do remember Wilcox and Ripley were integral, in the same way the Leicester wide man (name escapes me), Huth and Morgan were for Leicester.

And alongside Sutton and Shearer, I think they had Colin Hendry, who for that one PL-winning season was excellent.

It is weird however, because most would say Pochettino was/is a good coach. He had the best collective talent we have had for twenty years. He had some hod carriers. Trophies - nada. Yet, nobody would argue that Walker, Kane, Alli (briefly), and Eriksen weren't top drawer.Son. We had the WorldCup winning goalie. We had arguably the best central defensive partnership. Honestly, just how did we not find a way?

And not crossing the line is not on Levy. He got all that lot here at that seminal period.

But yes.