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Management What proves managerial competence?

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Notabadsquad said:
Yep, true but do remember Wilcox and Ripley were integral, in the same way the Leicester wide man (name escapes me), Huth and Morgan were for Leicester.

And alongside Sutton and Shearer, I think they had Colin Hendry, who for that one PL-winning season was excellent.

It is weird however, because most would say Pochettino was/is a good coach. He had the best collective talent we have had for twenty years. He had some hod carriers. Trophies - nada. Yet, nobody would argue that Walker, Kane, Alli (briefly), and Eriksen weren't top drawer.Son. We had the WorldCup winning goalie. We had arguably the best central defensive partnership. Honestly, just how did we not find a way?

And not crossing the line is not on Levy. He got all that lot here at that seminal period.

But yes.
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I think Poch had, for 2 seasons, probably 9-10 players that would get in any great team.
The problem was always a case that we needed 3-5 more to rotate. Not even great ones, just capable ones.
18/19, when we signed nobody really annoyed me because of the statement from Poch himself saying "it's very hard to improve this 11"
That may have been true, but when you're relying on Sanchez, Foyth, Davies, Winks, Dier, Moura, Janssen as players to sub on or start when others are injured, that's why it all started coming down.
I doubt we'll ever know if this was naivety from Poch or his choice or forced upon him from above. I think it's a bit of all of it.
 
Matt1882 said:
I think Poch had, for 2 seasons, probably 9-10 players that would get in any great team.
The problem was always a case that we needed 3-5 more to rotate. Not even great ones, just capable ones.
18/19, when we signed nobody really annoyed me because of the statement from Poch himself saying "it's very hard to improve this 11"
That may have been true, but when you're relying on Sanchez, Foyth, Davies, Winks, Dier, Moura, Janssen as players to sub on or start when others are injured, that's why it all started coming down.
I doubt we'll ever know if this was naivety from Poch or his choice or forced upon him from above. I think it's a bit of all of it.
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None of those who you mention in that group to rely on were that bad,possibly Janssen apart. Like Postecoglou is demonstrating, maybe a step too far.

We just never had one player who did for us what Vardy and Mahrez did, or what Hazard did for Chelsea.

No doubt whatsoever that if we had had Bale in that group we would have won the PL and more. Of all our players in the last 20 years,he absolutely was unstoppable on his day.
 
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Matt1882 said:
I think Poch had, for 2 seasons, probably 9-10 players that would get in any great team.
The problem was always a case that we needed 3-5 more to rotate. Not even great ones, just capable ones.
18/19, when we signed nobody really annoyed me because of the statement from Poch himself saying "it's very hard to improve this 11"
That may have been true, but when you're relying on Sanchez, Foyth, Davies, Winks, Dier, Moura, Janssen as players to sub on or start when others are injured, that's why it all started coming down.
I doubt we'll ever know if this was naivety from Poch or his choice or forced upon him from above. I think it's a bit of all of it.
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Yeah that was the difference between us winning and not winning competitions under Poch. We never had the squad to rotate so injuries killed us every season. We often went out of the cups early because we'd rotate and the players coming in were not good enough. Our starting 11 was probably the best in the league for a few seasons but we had no depth at all. Any injury would set us back straight away.
 
Poch was certainly a very competent man manager and coach. The most noticable thing was how Jan Vertonghen went from being a luxury defender with poor positioning to forming one of the best defensive partnerships in England with the introduction of Toby. The decision to play a formation that could switch between attack (Dier drops into a back 3, wingbacks move forward) and defence was pivotal to the way we played. Our main problem was probably a lack of plan B in attack, but at least he acknowledged that with the introduction of Llorente at times.

Redknapp was also a manager that could get a tune out of some pretty ordinary players. I still think the best football I've seen live at Spurs was during his tenure - especially that match where we went down to 10 against Villa (I think) but they couldn't win the ball off us due to our movement and possession game. Of course, he had the benefit of some excellent players too.

Organised, able to get the best out of squad level players, and able to adapt to opposition and game conditions are all things I'd love to see in a Spurs manager. However, Spurs being Spurs - we also need to be entertained, and that is just so hard to find while still maintaining defensive solidity.
 
Notabadsquad said:
None of those who you mention in that group to rely on were that bad,possibly Janssen apart. Like Postecoglou is demonstrating, maybe a step too far.

We just never had one player who did for us what Vardy and Mahrez did, or what Hazard did for Chelsea.

No doubt whatsoever that if we had had Bale in that group we would have won the PL and more. Of all our players in the last 20 years,he absolutely was unstoppable on his day.
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I don't really rate any of those players, hence why I put them in there.

Examples - we had a patch where we drew 4 in a row in the first half of the season of 16/17
1-1 vs West Brom - Toby comes off for Dier after 60 minutes. WBA score on 80 minutes. Probably a Dier brainfart. Late equalizer for Dele. No Kane, Jansen started.
0-0 Bournemouth - Dier starts, have to bring Janssen and Sissoko off a very vanilla bench. No Kane at all.
1-1 Leicester - No Kane again. No Toby again. Bench is horrible. No subs until 83 minutes when we bring on NKoudu and Winks
1-1 V Arse. Kane back but a back 3 of Jan, Winner and Dier. Bench again is aweful. Winks on, Janssen on, Trips for Walker is about as good as a backup as we've ever had.

We needed better players to bring in. I don't dispute that Hazard had magic for Chelsea. But they also had a deep squad to call on and they had no Europe. Leicester the season before also had no Europe.
Heck, we had no Europe and the oaf we have got us to 5th somehow.
 
guyt2030 said:
Not with us.
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That's the point. Just getting a trophy winner in isn't the answer.
We need some one who has a proven record of improving teams and players beyond what they're perceived to be capable of.
In fact, going after a serial winner of a coach could be bad news as they're more likely to get the hump and fuck off when it becomes obvious we aren't going to keep their record going.
 
Matt1882 said:
I don't really rate any of those players, hence why I put them in there.

Examples - we had a patch where we drew 4 in a row in the first half of the season of 16/17
1-1 vs West Brom - Toby comes off for Dier after 60 minutes. WBA score on 80 minutes. Probably a Dier brainfart. Late equalizer for Dele. No Kane, Jansen started.
0-0 Bournemouth - Dier starts, have to bring Janssen and Sissoko off a very vanilla bench. No Kane at all.
1-1 Leicester - No Kane again. No Toby again. Bench is horrible. No subs until 83 minutes when we bring on NKoudu and Winks
1-1 V Arse. Kane back but a back 3 of Jan, Winner and Dier. Bench again is aweful. Winks on, Janssen on, Trips for Walker is about as good as a backup as we've ever had.

We needed better players to bring in. I don't dispute that Hazard had magic for Chelsea. But they also had a deep squad to call on and they had no Europe. Leicester the season before also had no Europe.
Heck, we had no Europe and the oaf we have got us to 5th somehow.
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No Europe was more beneficial than the objective depth of the squad.

We never lost any of the games you mentioned.

Chelsea,like Leicester also went on absolutely insane winning runs.

We were a tad unlucky, but we should have found a way.
 
Matt1882 said:
We need some one who has a proven record of improving teams and players beyond what they're perceived to be capable of.
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Sport Wow GIF by Celtic Football Club
 
Notabadsquad said:
No Europe was more beneficial than the objective depth of the squad.

We never lost any of the games you mentioned.

Chelsea,like Leicester also went on absolutely insane winning runs.

We were a tad unlucky, but we should have found a way.
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But other than Woolwich, we should really have won 3 of those 4 draws, and had we done so, we'd have got 6 more points and been nearer the top by then already.
fine margins but we were very, very good that season bar those 4 draws and the weird loss to west ham near the end of the season. We probably started 10 of our best 11 in that game against West Ham. (Dier in place of Dembele) but we had very little at our disposal to add anything to a lacklusture performance.
 
Constant improvement, not always linear but over time constant improvement.
Individual players playing to maximum potential and form.
Team is organised and resilient
Good defensive record
Fluid attacking patterns
Adaptability
Good results
 
In the older days it was all about spotting talent ( whether at youth level or from un-fancied or lower-league [even non-league ] clubs ) ; and then essentially running , managing , coaching (and deciding everything about ) what the club stood for . He brought in the players and made them perform to his plan ; as imagined and enacted by him .

The success (and money) allowed them to bring in trophy signings ; the Cherries on top of the cake and icing he’d created out of scratch and with his own ideas , energy and recipe .

Bill Nic , Busby , Shanks , Clough , SAF ( and I hate to say it ) Wenger worked like that .

Today ; it seems about lower rated sides getting icing on top of their cake . Thus the manager is a candidate for a bigger club .

The manager gets a big job ; and thereafter man-managing too many expensive cherries to fit on the cake at any one time ; will bring success and kudos .

Extending this analogy : Ange has currently got a few bits of icing mixed in with some cake and some cherries he’s dropped on the floor ( which he’s always looking at ) .

Also the owner of the Patisserie is always going to Lidl for the ingredients ( with an occasional splash-out for a “ reduced for quick sale “ item from Waitrose) and doesn’t allow the oven to be too long at anyone time .
 
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John Duncan said:
In the older days it was all about spotting talent ( whether at youth level or from un-fancied or lower-league [even non-league ] clubs ) ; and then essentially running , managing , coaching (and deciding everything about ) what the club stood for . He brought in the players and made them perform to his plan ; as imagined and enacted by him .

The success (and money) allowed them to bring in trophy signings ; the Cherries on top of the cake and icing they’d created out of scratch and with his own ideas , energy and recipe .

Bill Nic , Busby , Shanks , Clough , SAF ( and I hate to say it ) Wenger worked like that .

Today ; it seems about lower rated sides getting icing on top of their cake . Thus the manager is a candidate for a bigger club .

The manager gets a big job ; and thereafter man-managing too many expensive cherries to fit on the cake at any one time ; will bring success and kudos .

Extending this analogy : Ange has currently got a few bits of icing mixed in with some cake and some cherries he’s dropped on the floor ( which he’s always looking at ) .

Also the owner of the Patisserie is always going to Lidl for the ingredients ( with an occasional splash-out for a “ reduced for quick sale “ item from Waitrose) and doesn’t allow the oven to be often or for too long at anyone time .
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Interesting take.

I don't think we shop at Lidl for all our goods but we also seem to go to Waitrose and buy some stuff that is just about to go off.
 
Notabadsquad said:
Interesting take.

I don't think we shop at Lidl for all our goods but we also seem to go to Waitrose abd buy some stuff that is just about to go off.
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I agree; I wasn’t happy with that bit :
should have been “ would prefer to shop at Lidl but realises he can’t avoid shopping at “ overpriced” Waitrose and so goes for the reduced items because they represent a bargain “ . ( Even if they go off in a day or two ; and thus actually end up being more expensive , in terms of what you actually get for your outlay ) .
 
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