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- Thread starter MemphisWill
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Our 16/17 revenue was around £305m. Of that figure, £145m was Premier League prize money (for finishing 2nd), £45m receipts, £38m UEFA prize money, £72m other commercial income and £5m for other media.
Southampton finished just outside the European qualifying places in 8th. They earned 122m in PL prize money and missed out on the potential to earn any UEFA prize money for the following season. That's a £60m difference against our actual income; and that's without taking into account a potential like-for-like reduction in gate receipts had we not qualified for the Champions League, nor the weaker position we'd have been in when it comes to negotiating commercial deals.
In the context of the modern game (whether we like what it has become or not), I think it's straightforwardly wrong to argue there's no benefit to prioritising a Champions League spot.
You might be able to make the case that we've not made optimal use of our Champions League (direct and indirect) income, but that argument doesn't invalidate the pursuit.
Are you seriously of the opinion that winning a second rate competition that barely rates above preseason challenges is more important to the club than qualifying for the elite global competition? You’d be satisfied right now if we’d pushed on in the cartoon Cup, won it, but it caused us to drop 7 points along the way and we finished 5th?
No that is not what people want. However as someone posted elsewhere a very high % of cups are won by the top 6 clubs. Just not us and Liverpool. Therefore if both of us really want to be considered one of the top clubs we have to win trophies and qualify for CL. It is not one or the other but both.
Well that’s a different matter. I’m not saying I wouldn’t enjoy us winning a cup - I’m saying that it’s absurd in the 21st century to think a club should prioritize a domestic cup over CL qualification. No big club in the world does that. United, City, Madrid, et al. rotate heavily in domestic cups and especially in the early rounds. The difference is this often means we trip up where they still usually cruise because their significantly larger wage bills ensure that their 2nd rate cup squads are usually better than what we rotate in.
We aren’t treating the domestic cups any different than any other major club - Poch just isn’t lying about it like a lot of managers.
I didn’t say there wasn’t any benefit, quite clearly it enhances our revenue stream which is why I stated the figures previously. What I did say is that doesn’t achieve is any of that stated benefits that have been continuously rolled out for well over a decade.
It doesn’t enable us to sign a higher standard of player- we know this because we only have to look to our transfer activity in the last couple of years as evidence of that.
It doesn’t enable us to retain our best players firstly because it doesn’t enable us to operate an elite club payrol and secondarily do you people honestly believe that our best players would turn down the likes of Real Madrid or Barcelona simply because we have CL football. Newsflash those clubs have that and can pay the elite wages and provide consistent honours. The likes of Liverpool and Woolwich have consistently lost their best players with consistent CL football/revenues but I am supposed to believe it is different with us despite are turnover being less than theirs? Good one.
And finally it doesn’t enable us to become an elite club, we are the sixth biggest club in the league with CL revenues and are the sixth biggest without them. It closes the gap between us, Woolwich and Liverpool, 2 clubs who are not elite level clubs themselves.
All it really means in reality is a greater bonus payments for the personnel at the club. But the supporters don’t want to hear that which is they always choose the blue pill over the red and is why this nonsense is continually repeated.
All of that is true, however we still put out our strongest team in the semi so I fail to see how we weren't treating it as a priority at that stage.
The performance on the day was not down to Poch or Levy, but down to the players and I'm not sure how that could of been changed.
If it is, your suggestion, that its a case of a "mindset" within the players, I don't agree with that. Every player at every club would want to win every game they are involved in.
It was a case of it being an off day, something that doesn't happen too often, but can be improved upon without doubt.
Good. So we can agree there is a significant financial incentive to target a top 4 place.
I don't agree that a perceived failure to buy a higher standard of player is evidence that the increased revenue doesn't offer us the potential to do so. I also don't think we're the only club to operate sub-optimally in the transfer market.
And yet, at the time of writing, we've retained all of our best players (and manager) over recent years, with the possible exception of Walker.
I believe that our performance in 2017/18 (both in the PL and CL) means we will overtake Woolwich to become the 5th highest PL club by revenue.
In light of the above, a top 4 place means considerably more than 'greater bonus payments'.
Oh, and we're building a new stadium.
Significant for those supporters who prioritise capital over everything else insignificant for those who understand this doesn’t alter our capacity in any discernible way.
Perceived?!? Oh Jesus. I take it you take a different view on the stature of signings of Sissoko, Janssen, GKN, Aurier, Llorente and Sanchez? We couldn’t sign such players with our CL football/revenues. If anything the standard/status of signings has actually dropped since we started to qualify.
And why did why Walker leave? Why is Rose and Alderwield looking to leave? I take it you believe that the likes of Kane and Ali would turn down moves to Real and Barca then? I take it Ali is learning Spanish for the pure enjoyment of it right? Would you care to explain why you think it enables us to retain our best players but not with Woolwich and Liverpool?
And? They are not an elite club and we have required the revenues from a 90,000 stadium and them not being in the CL to overtake them just. How did this postion ourselves amongst the elite?
The only problem is that you haven’t actually made any case for the supposed benefits of this.
I know and that is another thing that is being turned into something it is not. The rhetoric is starting to sound awfully like that which eminated from Woolwich when they moved into their new stadium. How did those promises work out for them?
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No. Significant full stop. You even said so yourself:
"I didn’t say there wasn’t any benefit, quite clearly it enhances our revenue stream..."
You missed my point. Completely.
I didn't explicitly contest your claim about the quality of signings. I simply stated that a 'perceived' failure to sign better quality players was not, in itself, evidence that there was no value in being able to do so.
My statement was indisputable. For all the recent scaremongering, we have only lost Walker. You can muddy the waters all you want with rumours of Alderweireld and Rose leaving, but that's all it is: rumours.
In any event, no team is completely immune to predators (Neymar to PSG being the obvious recent example) and I've never suggested otherwise.
How does any team go from being non-elite to being elite? Unless you can describe some hitherto unknown process that delivers a overnight success, we're just going to have to accept that, even if such a transition were possible, it requires time.
Sure I have. You just decided to interpret them differently.
I don't know what this means.
Apart from I didn’t did I? Where did I state that this was significant? Bizzare tact to take when it is blatant to see.
So we haven’t signed players that we couldn’t have done so before and the CL revenue generated this season amounts to £52 million which is significantly below the market value of an elite level player let alone the salary such players would demand. But hey there is no evidence to support my position? Right oh.
So Toby has signed a new contract then? He wasn’t frozen out of the side? Danny Rose didn’t go to the press at the seasons start and angle a move? He wasn’t frozen out for the majority of the season? I imagined all of this? Do you expect them to be here next season then? As for your statement, so let me get this straight the fact that we have retained the likes of Kane and Ali is indisputable of the value of the CL. In essence what you are saying is this puts us on a par with the likes of Barca and Real.
By being taken over by an Sovereign Wealth fund or an Oligarch, it is the only means available unless their is complete financial restructure of the game. I accepted the reality long ago but seemingly many others can’t and have to concoct this absurd reality where long term incremental growth is the mechanism required to bridge the gap between us and the natural and induced elite clubs. It’s laughably absurd if you look at those clubs capacity to ourselves but sadly most would choose live in a fantasy than face the reality of the situation.
There is nothing to interpret differently you have barely put a case forward,
What are you waffling on about now?
What a miserable existence you must lead. Arguing with your 'fellow' Spurs fans day after day.
You're a sad, strange little man and you have my pity. Farewell!
If all you want to do is dick around with semantics, we should just wrap this up.
You said "[a top 4 place] quite clearly enhances our revenue stream...". Can something really be 'quite clear' without being 'significant'? And, if 'quite clear' doesn't meet your threshold for 'significant', does it really fall so far short that we have to argue about which word to use?
Let's assume that was rhetorical: let's just agree that you do recognise the fact a top 4 place clearly enhances our revenue stream? Could we also agree that it's reasonable to infer from this that failure to secure a top 4 place is detrimental to our revenue stream?
You seem determined to get me to defend a comment I never made. I'm not sure how to make it clearer. Let me try.
Spending money badly does not mean there's no point in earning the money in the first place.
I haven't said any of those things. For clarity, here's what I did say:
"...at the time of writing, we've retained all of our best players (and manager) over recent years, with the possible exception of Walker."
Let's start by having you acknowledge this to be true.
Let's talk more about this. First, define 'Elite Club' (whether 'natural' or 'induced'); and list the PL's 'Elite Clubs'.
Let me get this right: you've reworded much of what I actually said to include a whole bunch of stuff I never said, then used this fantasy to argue I haven't made a case?
I'm genuinely happy to have this conversation, but not if you're going to continue to insist on dragging me through doors I never opened.
Save your breath mate. It’s like a Kafka-esque nightmare trying to have a sensible discussion with this trolling chump. The ignore button saves you from a lot of unnecessary frustration!