We can be heroes champions league final 01/06/2019

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Forget last night if you can for a minute or two.

We are a club that seem to perenially fall short. Sure we got to the final and the days between the Ajax match and last night will live long in the memory but there was one more mountain to scale and nearly inevitably we came up short of the summit, as though the giddy heights and lack of oxygen addled our brains somewhat.

We can talk and argue all day long about progress but there is a collective mental block that prevents us taking the final step. Even the law of large numbers evades us.

Pochettino has not and may never find the solution to that. I think if he stays and gets proper transfer backing he will have a season to show he is able.

As for Klopp and his big, shiny white teeth. Pressure lifted. Much more money spent of course but fans of the big 6 clubs just see one metric, rightly or wrongly.

I really don’t think the problem is a mental one, you don’t come through the City and Ajax games with poor mentality and you don’t cope with a season and a half of Wembley and still finish top 4 with a bad mentality, or grind out enough wins for top4 playing as poorly as we have this season with a weak mentality.

I’m not saying every player we have has bombproof mentality, I just mean that collectively we have a good mentality, we go into most games as a group thinking and trying to win.

I think It’s more tangible than that, but it’s not one simple thing. Some of it is purely and simply about what our status and budget (salary etc) can get us, some of it is about how well we use that budget (inc youth integration) some of it is things our coach does (selections, tactics, in game management) and some of it is the things players do (and some of that is dictated or influenced by our budget and how well we use that budget).

That’s not to say all those things are all wrong, they’re not, we get a lot of those things varying degrees of right, and most of the time that’s enough to do well, but those few things wrong in that chain can just cost us occasionally, especially on the toughest tests.

I do think a lot of the facets in that chain have not been as good as they could be over the last 3 seasons or so.
 
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I didn't think it was handball but the new rules state that it doesn't have to be deliberate, only that if the arm is in an unnatural position.

They take into account how close a player is, unnatural position, if the arm moves etc, it no longer has to be deliberate.
According to these rules it was handball due to unnatural position and movement.
Why these rules only apply to a defender and not an attacker is another question.

I'm not sure if these new rules are in place now or start from next season but the refs are definitely applying them now. Which obvs they shouldn't.

Should rename the rule to armball too whilst they're at it. I thought the hand was that thing at the end of the arm
 
Can't bring myself to look through this thread. Gutted but we were always the underdogs and I went in to the game expecting to lose. Sad that we didn't really get to truly enjoy being in a CL final at any point because we were down straight away.

In saying that, I thought we were the better side, neither team played that great and our build up was way too slow but we dominated a lot of the game but they defended pretty well. Easy to say now Lucas should have started over Kane but if we went that way and then lost people would be saying 'why not start Kane' so I think hindsight makes it easier.

I never thought I would get to see Tottenham in a Champions League final, sad not to win but I am so proud of this team and this club. The fans sounded fucking great and even outsang Liverpool after the final whistle despite losing. Made us believe, echo of glory and all that rings true.
 
I really don’t think the problem is a mental one, you don’t come through the City and Ajax games with poor mentality and you don’t cope with a season and a half of Wembley and still finish top 4 with a bad mentality, or grind out enough wins for top4 playing as poorly as we have this season with a weak mentality.

I’m not saying every player we have has bombproof mentality, I just mean that collectively we have a good mentality, we go into most games as a group thinking and trying to win.

I think It’s more tangible than that, but it’s not one simple thing. Some of it is purely and simply about what our status and budget (salary etc) can get us, some of it is about how well we use that budget (inc youth integration) some of it is things our coach does (selections, tactics, in game management) and some of it is the things players do (and some of that is dictated or influenced by our budget and how well we use that budget).
We are the 6th team in a row to lose there first CL final, maybe the occasion got to the players like it got to us, I was a nervous fucking wreck before and during the game, can’t imagine how the players felt, this loss will take a long time to get over
 
Disappointed to lose especially when Liverpool looked there for the taking. Liverpool were happy to sit back and let us have the ball. I think they've seen what we are capable of when teams are open and attack us (see Dortmund, City & Ajax) and changed up their usual style of play for this game. We seemed to lose all composure in and around the box with the final ball and the finishing.

What an amazing journey it's been, we've come back from the dead so many time in this campaign yet people still want to say we're bottlers. Top 4, LC Semi Final & Champions League final with how many injuries, 0 investment along with the stadium disruptions but apparently we're Spursy. Smart investment needed in the summer and we'll be there or thereabouts next season.

I'm so proud of this team, manager, backroom staff, everyone. With everything that has gone against us the last few years we never give up and as long as everyone sticks together we never will.
 


So how many players arms are away from their sides in this photo? Mane could have aimed at any of those Spurs players ....

or indeed whose arms are tucked away in any of these?

r


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Aiming at the arm is going to be the next season's 'dive' ....
 
We are the 6th team in a row to lose there first CL final, maybe the occasion got to the players like it got to us, I was a nervous fucking wreck before and during the game, can’t imagine how the players felt, this loss will take a long time to get over


I think that was a better performance in many ways than many we’ve put in in the last three months.

Liverpool pressed well first half, were tactically smarter in the first 60 minutes or so, were robust defensively for the next 15 minutes, but you can’t say they did anything more than us proactively that deserved to win them the game.
 


So how many players arms are away from their sides in this photo?

or indeed in any of these?

r


C-DExVIXkAQrFJf.jpg


article-2303835-19017DB1000005DC-322_634x515.jpg


pablo_hernandez_of_leeds_united_crosses_the_ball_for_kemar_roofe_1031906.jpg


Aiming at the arm is going to be the new 'dive' ....
Yep, they should have either left it as it was or have everything as handball, no exceptions.

They changed it, to deliberate handball, to stop players doing the same thing as they are going to do in the future, aiming for the arm.
 
People are so stupid they can't even think for themselves , the football viewer has been slowly groomed by Sky and BT to believe that things like last night's incident might actually be a penalty ! Two years ago that shit would have been laughed out of town !

VAR have led to UEFA trying to change the way the rules are interpreted so they can influence the games they want to influence , last night's shenanigans were deliberate .

Liverpool's owners are huge advacotes of a European super league and they add huge value to a European super league commercially, hard to justify their inclusion with a handful of Top 4 finishes and one league cup in the last 15 years so let's make sure they win the CL these filth are all in it together.
 
Regarding the winning mentality. I fully believe a win in something little, like the league cup, would give players a different mindset. Remember there are lots of players who have won things in the group, the problem is, as a group they have won nothing

As I said last night, we have on three recent occasions lost when in good positions to win things. Last night we lost to a team who offered very little. That's what hurts the most for me

So your solution is "win".... Like i say; not easy when one is asked to break it down on a practical level...

For me it's treating the cups like they matter because they do.

Fourth place is a business ambition, it's not a sporting one, we've seen the hollowness of that from Woolwich.

We should be going hammer and tongs at the cups until we lift some silverware. That's the point of football, and that will change the mentality of the squad. We've got barely anyone who has won a major final in their careers. Lloris obviously, Lucas won a bunch with PSG, Eriksen, Toby and Jan all won the 2010 KNVB Cup with Ajax but that was a two-legged tie, Victor Wanyama was an unused sub for one Celtic cup, it's not a lot, way less than our competitors.

Forgot Llorente and Aurier I guess. And Sonny won the Asian Games final, and came back a changed man, not a coincidence. Not a coincidence that Llorente and Lucas, two decorated players who had been in those situations dragged us back in Amsterdam either.

For a team that is alleged not to take cups seriously we seemed to have a damn good crack at 2 of them this year. Citing the FA cup this year would be harsh if one considers the fixture conjestion and injuries we were suffering at the time.

Certain circumstance call for prioritising.... This isn't likely to change.

Didn't the dippers throw both domestic cups this year?

Your end comments... So we do have winning experience in our ranks now. Was once the case that we were told that's what we lacked, yet here we are..... Hello darkness etc. :(
 
So, the morning after with a clear head here are a few thoughts for those that can be bothered to read them...

The lineup
I've seen a lot suggesting that Moura should have started because of the semi final hattrick, but I don't buy that. Llorente scored the winner against City and changed the game against Ajax when he came on, but there was no no clamour for him to start. The decision should have just been what was the best team to beat Liverpool. With hindsight probably the wrong decision to start Kane, but as Poch said whatever decision he'd made if we'd won it would have been the right one, and if we lost the wrong one. None of our front 4 really played to their peak last night - would Moura starting have changed that? Who knows. I think a lot of other managers would have done the same - Klopp had a similar decision to make with Firmino and made the same call to start him.

The penalty
I still don't think it was a penalty, but I can see why it was given. Very naïve from Sissoko to have his arm out like that in the box, and I think Mané played for it, especially with some of the handball decisions that have been made this season. If it had hit his hand first, no argument, but as it bounced off his chest I do think the law says it shouldn't have been awarded (I did post the relevant section last night, but not angry enough to Google it again today). One thing I would say is that the ref seemed to make the decision very quickly. I think he saw the arm up and the ball hit it, and wasn't prepared to consider any other explanation. He did speak to VAR through the earpiece and they obviously didn't see enough to suggest he have another look on the screen, which did surprise me.

The game
Neither team played brilliantly, which is what makes it so frustrating. They weren't at their best and that gave us a chance, but we couldn't lift our game enough either. Maybe the same factors affected both teams - the heat, the long break etc. but ultimately we weren't good enough. Liverpool were clinical with the chances they had and we never honestly looked like scoring. Needed more from our attack when we got into the final third, but let's not forget that they have the tightest defence in the league and only lost once all season.
If we'd been playing a Real Madrid team that had finished second domestically with 97 points and had that sort of record would we have expected to get back into it after going a goal down?

The season
Overall it has to be considered a good season. Obviously I want to see us win trophies, but ultimately I wouldn't have swapped our CL run for the Carabao cup in February. The league campaign was tough, and but for the teams around us dropping points too we could have dropped out of the top 4 - which would have had serious consequences (as Paul Robinson said in interview that was what caused Leeds to spiral out of control, not losing CL semi final itself) - but we didn't. Until February we were being talked of in the title race, but it really tanked from there - a combination of factors including injuries, fatigue (7 or 8 (can't remember if Winks was in the squad?) of the starting XI last night were involved in the last weekend of World Cup fixtures last summer, plus Son played at the Asian games), and fixture congestion, compounded by a lack of depth in the squad. The team that started last night is probably our best XI and yet we only started with that lineup in one other game all season (Home v City in the CL). We won a lot of games, but lost too many and that is clearly what we will need to improve on next season - the top teams find a way to win when not playing well. We should be helped a little by the fact that we are now in a magnificent new stadium (which was rocking last night) and away from Wembley.

The future
Getting to a CL final is a huge achievement - you have to beat at least 3 or 4 of the top teams in Europe - but we have to look on last night as the first of many, rather than a one off. We have shown over the past couple of seasons that we can mix it with the best in Europe, but it is putting together all of those wins in a single campaign. Now we need to do it again.
This summer will be a big one. The most important person to keep hold of is Poch, and if that takes backing him in the transfer window then we have to do it. We will need replacements for anyone who leaves from our first XI (likely Toby/Eriksen), plus what we've needed for the last 2-3 seasons - depth in central midfield and genuine cover for Eriksen and Kane. Eriksen gets a lot of stick for not turning up/putting the effort in, but he never really gets a break and is always one of the ones who runs the most. The problem is that we don't have any other midfielder who can do what he does creatively, and so we can't risk giving him a rest. We need cover for Kane too, especially as he seems to be increasingly injury prone. As much as I appreciate what Llorente gave us in the CL run he is not the answer (and likely leaving this summer anyway) and neither is Janssen. There is an argument to be made around full backs too, although Rose has had a better second half of the season.
A summer with no international football should do our squad good and with a few good signings we will be ready to go again next season. The next step is to add silverware and we are moving in that direction. Positive thoughts!

Mark
 
I think that was a better performance in many ways than many we’ve put in in the last three months.

Liverpool pressed well first half, were tactically smarter in the first 60 minutes or so, were robust defensively for the next 15 minutes, but you can’t say they did anything more than us proactively that deserved to win them the game.
It’s always going to be hard when your 1-0 down within a minute playing against one of the best defensive teams in Europe
 
Regardless of technical "letter of the law" handball argument, the referee could've fully justified waiving it away, it wasn't a shot on target and it hit his chest first. In the interest of sportsmanship and spectatorship, if the shoe was on the other foot, I would fully understand that.

At the end of the day though, we failed to perform. Liverpool did the bare minimum and were really there for the taking if we upped our game.

But we're Spurs, do we ever expect anything less? and I won't lie, for all the last minute dramas against City and Ajax, I don't feel like we've deserved to be there and I'd take the high flying attacking performances of 16/17 over this seasons run.

This summer needs to be a revolution, signing players now seems to be harder than ever with ridiculous price tags for average players. We need to be bold, bring Bale back, spend the extra money on the proven players and the whole team will spark back into life.

And anyone slating Dele, he is just having an off season, give him a break.
 
Looks like my decision to not go was the right one.. I’ve heard from a few mates that went and it’s been a bit of a faf getting to and from Spain, then to Madrid, then finding somewhere to stay, then finding a pub you could get in.. A few years ago I would have walked and Swam to this game but I guess I’m either getting wiser or less tolerable.
Nothing but admiration for those that did spend the £1,000’s and went to great lengths but the fact that it was against another English club kind of took the shine off for me and was the decision for me to not join the party..

Well done to all that went, you can all say you followed your club to the champions League final and that can never be taken away..

Respect..
 
Now FIFA/UEFA has made football so much better with the handball rules, I think they need to start looking at the offside rule as well. Accidental offsides should no longer count as offsides I think. To be offside there has to be intent.

And if you cannot tackle without touching your opponent in any capacity then it should be a foul. This rule has been trialled this season with Mo Salah.

Head clashes need to be stamped out the game so if two players clash head both should be sent off.

The trouble with football has always been it's too simple. You can explain the rules in a minute, it needs to made more complex like Chess for example, because that's obviously what everyone wants. A great rule would be a winger can only cross a ball if he takes two steps forward and one to the side. Or a full back can only pass diagonally.

I'm being silly of course but I like how football used to be played, when it was simple, I don't like how it's becoming like rugby or American football, where the referees call an infringement and no one really quite understands why, and the commentators have to think of a reason but often they don't know either. You can't watch either of those sports without a commentator because you need them to explain the rules, and football is becoming the same.
 
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