Jan Vertonghen

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It's a fucking joke that him, Toby, and eriksen are running their contracts down. Surely the amount they want extra is nowhere near the cost of their transfer fees we would not receive. Just give them all what they want and let's move on with some optimism for the season.
What? ... If they sign a new contract Jan and Toby will be well in their mid-thirties before the contract runs down ... they will have zero transfer value then, just as they all have zero transfer value come the summer ... we have offered both Jan and Toby short term contracts, it's up to them if the want to sign ...

Eriksen is very different, for three years he's refused to sign a contract, now he wants a low buy out option included, on current form he's not worth a 12m a year contract, we could end up with our own version of Ozil, a five year 60m waste of space we can't even give away.

If someone is daft enough to pay us in January bite their hands off ... if not then bye bye in the summer.
 
Penny pinching chairman thinks otherwise:levystare:

Cos paying 40, 50 60 million to replace him + the same or more in wages would be so much more appealing.

Bearing mind he's due to leave for free; If he's as tight as you suggest, that makes no sense.
 
I already wanted to say when it was discussed previously that "should we offer 32 yo player more than 1 year???" that Vertonghen is a club legend, and we could give him contract for 10 years if he wants! He has given us best years of his career and played really well for us. His wages can't be much above 5 mil per season. And I would be willing to spend this kind of amount on him even if he'd be able to play like every 3rd game (+ be a dressing room figure + help to develop new young CBs).

Thanks Jan for all the awesome emotions you gave given to Spurs fans worldwide.
We really appreciate your efforts and long may you stay with us (until the end of your playing days and beyond!)

Easily one of my favorite footballers of all!
 
....I think we could afford to give him the 2 year deal he wants.

Would give us a bit of a reprieve having somewhat fucked Sanchez's development up and buy us a second chance at a smooth transition to a new back line.

"having somewhat fucked Sanchez developement"??

Wut now :D ?

We are result oriented football club. If someone wants to have a place in starting XI he has to play better than the player holding down the spot before him. We cannot think that "ah, yea, Sanchez will leak a goal now and then, most likely cost us like 9 points alone across season, but he is younger so that is fine". He has not performed better than Toby orJan in recent times, so he is 3rd choice. All fair to me.

Plus it's hardly like we have frozen him out - he played 3600 minutes during his 1st season (when he actually looked very good) and got 3000 minutes last season (when he was much worse already). And has played 540 minutes already this season. So I don't really see how we have fucked his developement. I rather believe that he has been way more error prone since his 1st season, so A SLIGHT reduction in playing time has reflected that, and to me it is all fair and square. And YES I have read some excuses why some think that he has played worse, but one of the main has been that he does need a leader of defence next to him. While well... Vertonghen IS that leader. From that logic, I don't see why should he ever play before Jan (whenever Jan is sufficiently rested / in good physical shape)...
 
"having somewhat fucked Sanchez developement"??

Wut now :D ?

We are result oriented football club. If someone wants to have a place in starting XI he has to play better than the player holding down the spot before him. We cannot think that "ah, yea, Sanchez will leak a goal now and then, most likely cost us like 9 points alone across season, but he is younger so that is fine". He has not performed better than Toby orJan in recent times, so he is 3rd choice. All fair to me.

Plus it's hardly like we have frozen him out - he played 3600 minutes during his 1st season (when he actually looked very good) and got 3000 minutes last season (when he was much worse already). And has played 540 minutes already this season. So I don't really see how we have fucked his developement. I rather believe that he has been way more error prone since his 1st season, so A SLIGHT reduction in playing time has reflected that, and to me it is all fair and square. And YES I have read some excuses why some think that he has played worse, but one of the main has been that he does need a leader of defence next to him. While well... Vertonghen IS that leader. From that logic, I don't see why should he ever play before Jan (whenever Jan is sufficiently rested / in good physical shape)...

It's simple.... The stability and martialing in year 1 was improving him.

The in/out, ad-hoc playing time and constantly changing line-up & personnel at CB last season has seen him regress (playing him at RB - rather than Toby who has previous there - seemed positively cruel tbh, but I won't dwell on that here).

For reason's other than his own performances, Dav was dropped for a contract rebel still recovering from injury; this is a player we'd invested heavily in as a natural successor to said player (Toby)...

Not Poch's finest hour.

It's pretty much the Ben Davies story too.
 
It's simple.... The stability and martialing in year 1 was improving him.

The in/out, ad-hoc playing time and constantly changing line-up & personnel at CB last season has seen him regress (playing him at RB - rather than Toby who has previous there - seemed positively cruel tbh, but I won't dwell on that here).

For reason's other than his own performances, Dav was dropped for a contract rebel still recovering from injury; this is a player we'd invested heavily in as a natural successor to said player (Toby)...

Not Poch's finest hour.

It's pretty much the Ben Davies story too.

I respect your opinion but I strongly disagree (except with the part of playing him at RB was a cruel and quite honestly - needless move).

I believe that last season there was more pressure on the defense as well, as we really did not have a proper DM and even our CM was short of an anchor who would have controlled the tempo and would be able to calm it down (like Dembele). So that in turn put more pressure on defense than in previous season (when, well, we had Dembele + Dier was fit and filled DM role better). Once this piece of the puzzle was missing our defense faced more pressure by opposite team attackers and that made him make more wrong calls. And more mistakes meant that he got bit less playing time. In my view this is hardly "reason other than his own performance".

And it has carried out to this season when our midfield is rather exposed (this year magnified by issues at fullback position), defenders face a lot of work, and in such circumstances Sanchez is performing poorer than more experienced Toby and Jan.

I get that we have invested heavily in him, but that does not count for anything in that sense - playing time should be dependent on the fact weather you could outperform your competitor in the same position or not. Or if that is not the case, Alli should pretty much never play if we have 6x more "invested in" player in Lamela on the bench.
 
Jan should be given the rest of his career with us if he wants to stay and a coaching role as well.
I have zero doubt he will contribute hugely to our season and the next-we have to repay loyalty and being a great player for the club with the contracts and respect it deserves.
Our best defender since ledley by a distance and always pure class.
 
I respect your opinion but I strongly disagree (except with the part of playing him at RB was a cruel and quite honestly - needless move).

I believe that last season there was more pressure on the defense as well, as we really did not have a proper DM and even our CM was short of an anchor who would have controlled the tempo and would be able to calm it down (like Dembele). So that in turn put more pressure on defense than in previous season (when, well, we had Dembele + Dier was fit and filled DM role better). Once this piece of the puzzle was missing our defense faced more pressure by opposite team attackers and that made him make more wrong calls. And more mistakes meant that he got bit less playing time. In my view this is hardly "reason other than his own performance".

And it has carried out to this season when our midfield is rather exposed (this year magnified by issues at fullback position), defenders face a lot of work, and in such circumstances Sanchez is performing poorer than more experienced Toby and Jan.

I get that we have invested heavily in him, but that does not count for anything in that sense - playing time should be dependent on the fact weather you could outperform your competitor in the same position or not. Or if that is not the case, Alli should pretty much never play if we have 6x more "invested in" player in Lamela on the bench.

Thing is though, neither Toby nor Rose have seamlessly plopped back in. Both have struggled over the last 12-18 months to re-find their form or yore.

As already noted (IMO at least) Dav wasn't dropped and kept out on the basis of Toby playing better.

Besides, on the basis of your pitch above, isn't our defense generally becoming more pourous more of an indictment of the primary starter(s) rather than the ad-hoc cover guy (Dav)?

My point wasn't about Dav's fee; just that once up and running the continuation of the Dav/Jan combo of 17/18 represented an investment in our future..... Look where we are now, if things don't go just right we may lose both vets this summer and Dav will be left our most 'experienced' CB despite for what looks like being 2 years in a row without regular football.

Edit: Note; I did say "somewhat fucked his development", not we have outright done so....
 
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Thing is though, neither Toby nor Rose have seamlessly plopped back in. Both have struggled over the last 12-18 months to re-find their form or yore.

As already noted (IMO at least) Dav wasn't dropped and kept out on the basis of Toby playing better.

Besides, on the basis of your pitch above, isn't our defense generally becoming more pourous more of an indictment of the primary starter(s) rather than the ad-hoc cover guy (Dav)?

My point wasn't about Dav's fee; just that once up and running the continuation of the Dav/Jan combo of 17/18 represented an investment in our future..... Look where we are now, if things don't go just right we may lose both vets this summer and Dav will be left our most 'experienced' CB despite for what looks like being 2 years in a row without regular football.

Edit: Note; I did say "somewhat fucked his development", not we have outright done so....

I disagree here once more with the point that Dav was not dropped due to Toby playing better. Toby was playing better than Dav last season and he is currently as well. Toby is a better defender than Dav, I see very little question here. Toby 2019 might not be up to Toby 16/17 level, but Toby 2019 is still better than Sanchez 2019. And this is what we should compare.

Not to mention aspect I have pointed out numerous times - on top of pure defending ability Toby is an excellent ball-playing CB. He can pick a pass, he can execute wonderful cross (kmh, even make assists) while Sanchez ball-playing ability is not even on the same scale. What does it matter one can ask? Simple - if you fail to deliver the pass out of defense to your team-mate, defense is under more pressure due to this fact. It almost never happens with Jan nor Toby, but much more often with Dav.

Also "being 2 years in a row without regular football" - come on, simply not true. Last season Dav played over 3000 minutes which is equivalent to 33 full games. Since Christmas he started minutes 15 times out of 21. That is regular football to me. Sorry, but to me it seems that it is all focusing on one season he was good in, and finding excuses to all other instances. Man against man, Toby has outplayed Sanchez and I feel so much more relaxed seeing Toby next to Jan compared to Jan+Sanchez.

Sorry, it is getting bit off topic, but at least still is related to Jan as we are talking about CB situation in general.
 
I disagree here once more with the point that Dav was not dropped due to Toby playing better. Toby was playing better than Dav last season and he is currently as well. Toby is a better defender than Dav, I see very little question here. Toby 2019 might not be up to Toby 16/17 level, but Toby 2019 is still better than Sanchez 2019. And this is what we should compare.

Not to mention aspect I have pointed out numerous times - on top of pure defending ability Toby is an excellent ball-playing CB. He can pick a pass, he can execute wonderful cross (kmh, even make assists) while Sanchez ball-playing ability is not even on the same scale. What does it matter one can ask? Simple - if you fail to deliver the pass out of defense to your team-mate, defense is under more pressure due to this fact. It almost never happens with Jan nor Toby, but much more often with Dav.

Also "being 2 years in a row without regular football" - come on, simply not true. Last season Dav played over 3000 minutes which is equivalent to 33 full games. Since Christmas he started minutes 15 times out of 21. That is regular football to me. Sorry, but to me it seems that it is all focusing on one season he was good in, and finding excuses to all other instances. Man against man, Toby has outplayed Sanchez and I feel so much more relaxed seeing Toby next to Jan compared to Jan+Sanchez.

Sorry, it is getting bit off topic, but at least still is related to Jan as we are talking about CB situation in general.

I appreciate the continued respectful tone this exchange is adhering to, but tbf, you've begun misrepresenting some of what I've said and further discarding some altogether.

The regularity I speak of (as already defined) doesn't speak merely of the amount of minutes; it's about where, in what games and with whom. I stand by the assessment that his game-time from 18/19 onwards has been irregular in this sense. Meanwhile, when I cite a 2 year time frame I'm projecting forward to the end of this season.

Last year, was Toby playing better than Dav had done the year before?

At times; certainly, but this ignores the key factor that the dropping I allude to had already happened by this time and along the way since Toby's form and performances themself since injury have been a rocky road which would justifiably leave Dav thinking "why was I dropped for this guy?".... A degree of the damage done may prove to have been psychological and will take certain scenarios and outcomes to repair.

Another point is that Toby himself looks 'rudderless' without Jan a lot of the time, so why wouldn't the less experienced Sanchez? ...To deny him acknowledgement of this when asseseing him directly against Toby is unfair. By default if Dav isn't playing then it's almost inevitable Toby wil be alongside the steadying influence of Jan and thus get to operate from his comfort zone. Meanwhile, Toby suffers greatly when being played on the left. So much so that the less experienced Dav usually is the one asked to play out of position when they do play side by side.

The hear and now that Toby is showing a good level (if not attune to his peak; even though he should be given his age and position!) is a welcome eventuality, but doesn't negate the deeper picture that I have been attempting to paint all along. Which is very simply, Dav could well be a far better prospect for us NOW if he hadn't retained his spot from 17/18.

In simple terms, my point in all this is that; as 17/18 came to a close we had an opportunity to seize Davs good form and become less reliant upon Toby being here; we didn't take it and given the existing question mark hanging over his future here this could have blown up in our faces this past summer. In a worst case scenario, it still might.

(As an aside, I acknowledge Toby's superior track record when it comes to his passing; but let's not forget that part of the appeal of the raw attributes of Dav at Ajax was that he had showed ability and quaility in terms of progressing the ball, marauding forward and starting attacks. For me to unlock that aspect of his game was the natural step for the more settled version of Dav that was saw by the close of 17/18.)

I agree though that this is a discussion better had elsewhere.... Perhaps 'at' me in the Toby thread if you wish to debate further.
 
I appreciate the continued respectful tone this exchange is adhering to, but tbf, you've begun misrepresenting some of what I've said and further discarding some altogether.

The regularity I speak of (as already defined) doesn't speak merely of the amount of minutes; it's about where, in what games and with whom. I stand by the assessment that his game-time from 18/19 onwards has been irregular in this sense. Meanwhile, when I cite a 2 year time frame I'm projecting forward to the end of this season.

Last year, was Toby playing better than Dav had done the year before?

At times; certainly, but this ignores the key factor that the dropping I allude to had already happened by this time and along the way since Toby's form and performances themself since injury have been a rocky road which would justifiably leave Dav thinking "why was I dropped for this guy?".... A degree of the damage done may prove to have been psychological and will take certain scenarios and outcomes to repair.

Another point is that Toby himself looks 'rudderless' without Jan a lot of the time, so why wouldn't the less experienced Sanchez? ...To deny him acknowledgement of this when asseseing him directly against Toby is unfair. By default if Dav isn't playing then it's almost inevitable Toby wil be alongside the steadying influence of Jan and thus get to operate from his comfort zone. Meanwhile, Toby suffers greatly when being played on the left. So much so that the less experienced Dav usually is the one asked to play out of position when they do play side by side.

The hear and now that Toby is showing a good level (if not attune to his peak; even though he should be given his age and position!) is a welcome eventuality, but doesn't negate the deeper picture that I have been attempting to paint all along. Which is very simply, Dav could well be a far better prospect for us NOW if he hadn't retained his spot from 17/18.

In simple terms, my point in all this is that; as 17/18 came to a close we had an opportunity to seize Davs good form and become less reliant upon Toby being here; we didn't take it and given the existing question mark hanging over his future here this could have blown up in our faces this past summer. In a worst case scenario, it still might.

(As an aside, I acknowledge Toby's superior track record when it comes to his passing; but let's not forget that part of the appeal of the raw attributes of Dav at Ajax was that he had showed ability and quaility in terms of progressing the ball, marauding forward and starting attacks. For me to unlock that aspect of his game was the natural step for the more settled version of Dav that was saw by the close of 17/18.)

I agree though that this is a discussion better had elsewhere.... Perhaps 'at' me in the Toby thread if you wish to debate further.

Okay, I have to admit I might have misunderstood/misinterpreted some parts of your posts (like that by 2 years you meant until end of current season).

- in terms of regularity I pointed out that he started 15 of 21 games in the end of the season. It is over 71% of the games. I think this could be called "regular starter" on its own.
- no, in terms of comparison I pointed out that Toby 2018 was better than Davinson 2018, and this should be comparison we are making. Not Toby 2018 vs Toby at his absolute best or Toby 2018 vs Davinson 2017.
- sorry, but I still believe that what you call "dropping I allude to had already happened by this time and along" was based on his performances. Sanchez started last season as our starting CB. He started 4 out of our 6 first games. Including game no 1 and game no 2 (in both of them we failed to keep a clean sheet against Newcastle and Fulham). I have to admit, I don't know the consideration and all the thinking mechanics behind the decision (well no-one except Poch and his team does) but if a player is started in 4 out of 6 first games including first 2 games, I would not agree with your description that he was dropped coldly from day one of the season.
- basically I believe that he was dropped for sporting reasons at the start of last season, bc we are a sporting team aiming for best possible result. And losing the place for such reason is totally fine with me. I don't think that it was mistreatment of talented youngster. I think it was competition for playing time (which is normal part of a strong team). I believe the eventual result might be actually worse when player would be picked by any other grounds than their performance levels. I just do not believe that end result (at least up to now) would have been better, if Davinson would have handed the starting place just due to good last season and his "potential". If Toby played better last season than Davinson, I think he deserved to play ahead of him.
 
Okay, I have to admit I might have misunderstood/misinterpreted some parts of your posts (like that by 2 years you meant until end of current season).

- in terms of regularity I pointed out that he started 15 of 21 games in the end of the season. It is over 71% of the games. I think this could be called "regular starter" on its own.
- no, in terms of comparison I pointed out that Toby 2018 was better than Davinson 2018, and this should be comparison we are making. Not Toby 2018 vs Toby at his absolute best or Toby 2018 vs Davinson 2017.
- sorry, but I still believe that what you call "dropping I allude to had already happened by this time and along" was based on his performances. Sanchez started last season as our starting CB. He started 4 out of our 6 first games. Including game no 1 and game no 2 (in both of them we failed to keep a clean sheet against Newcastle and Fulham). I have to admit, I don't know the consideration and all the thinking mechanics behind the decision (well no-one except Poch and his team does) but if a player is started in 4 out of 6 first games including first 2 games, I would not agree with your description that he was dropped coldly from day one of the season.
- basically I believe that he was dropped for sporting reasons at the start of last season, bc we are a sporting team aiming for best possible result. And losing the place for such reason is totally fine with me. I don't think that it was mistreatment of talented youngster. I think it was competition for playing time (which is normal part of a strong team). I believe the eventual result might be actually worse when player would be picked by any other grounds than their performance levels. I just do not believe that end result (at least up to now) would have been better, if Davinson would have handed the starting place just due to good last season and his "potential". If Toby played better last season than Davinson, I think he deserved to play ahead of him.

Trust me, as soon as the Toby or Dav decision presented itself, Poch chose Toby.....I'd bet with someone on here that Poch would back Dav in that very scenario... I lost. LOL

I won't retort by covering old ground... Whether or not Dav would have cracked on and performed to the level and degree of consistency that Toby has achieved over the last season-and-a-bit (IF BACKED) is pure projection either way, but I don't see why not - Peak Toby has only made occasional appearances since he returned from injury (I think the fact that no-one saw fit to pay 25m for him somewhat vindicates this view too).

Looking fwd, let's just hope that the reprieve I mentioned (which sparked this debate) comes to pass.

:thumbup:
 
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Speaking to talk sport after tonight he said :

"I feel extremely hurt, I feel ashamed, all negative thoughts are going through my head, it’s embarrassing to stand here in front of you guys,” the Belgian said.

“It’s tough. I’m not talking about other players, I’m talking about myself, about my feeling to watch everyone around the club. It’s a very bad result and I don’t want to speak too much.”

Nevertheless, Vertonghen issued a message of togetherness to Spurs fans and promised the team will overcome their shocking defeat.

“Keep supporting us,” he added. “I believe we have the people in the team to overcome this situation.

“This is a bad incident but this group is together. We have to stay together. We will turn this around. I’m not walking away from this, that’s why I’m speaking to you guys, we have to take responsibility and we will.

“The next game is in the Premier League on Saturday and that can be a good chances to get rid of this feeling.”

Not linking the talk sport site as I don't want to give them clicks.
 
I want him to stay at least for another year but clearly he has massively declined physically over the past year, watching him try to keep up with Bayern today was really sad to watch. Hes not being helped by a system that leaves him horribly exposed but he used to be able to handle 1v1s. Now he looks like an old man.
 
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