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Management Levy / ENIC

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Levy In or Levy Out

  • Total voters
    376
Brian Fantana said:
You should find 5 people to nominate you for the Fan Advisory Board. I think your foresight would be invaluable on managers if that was the case.
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You can take the piss all you like, mate. Fact is, I said Mourinho would fail under Levy and I said Conte would fail under Levy. Both times I was shouted down. Both times I was proven right.
We need to deal with facts.
Every manager Levy employs, regardless of their history or pedigree, ultimately fails.
Levy is the problem. Not the 15 managers he's hired and fired. I thought that was pretty obvious to all by now?
 
scarletjim said:
There are plenty of ways to get the point across for all types of fans, such as not going to games, not spending money at games, staging protests, holding banners and singing chants, campaigning groups, engaging in debates on forums such as this that appear to encourage media stirring, and plenty of others - whatever else he might be, Levy is a human being (I do see how people question that sometimes... :) ) - advocating anything that causes him to "retreat into the safety of Security" is totally unacceptable. We're not Neaderthals or animals (or scousers).
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I disagree. People are not going to games, hence thousands of tickets being resold every game leading to an amped up version of the Fulham neutral section. No change or impact

Get him
 
John Thomas said:
You can take the piss all you like, mate. Fact is, I said Mourinho would fail under Levy and I said Conte would fail under Levy. Both times I was shouted down. Both times I was proven right.
We need to deal with facts.
Every manager Levy employs, regardless of their history or pedigree, ultimately fails.
Levy is the problem. Not the 15 managers he's hired and fired. I thought that was pretty obvious to all by now?
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Click to shrink...

Of course it’s obvious, it just doesn’t need to be said EVERY post. You haven’t responded to my post yesterday about the rest of the board’s role in the club clusterfuck. Don’t you think they are happy Levy is the club’s lightening rod and should share a small percentage of the blame?

Disappointing you aren’t going for it btw. I think you should have second thoughts about it.
 
scarletjim said:
Yep, I can see all of that being a legitimate point of view - but it's not the only legitimate point of view, that's my point.

Presumably if we boil it down to the basics:

ENIC / LEVY OUT:
  • ENIC / Levy have done lots of bad things in the last 20 years
  • Failure to win any trophies
  • Some poor / unsuitable manager appointments, many poor player transfers
  • Too much focus on non-football revenue-increasing activities
  • Failed to back Poch when it looked like we might be able to achieve 'next level'
  • Higher expectations - believe we should be seriously challenging for title / regularly winning trophies

ENIC / LEVY IN:
  • ENIC / Levy have done lots of good things in the last 20 years
  • Average league position better now than 20 years ago
  • Unfortunate not to win any trophies having lost several finals / finished 2nd in league
  • Some successful manager appointments, many good player transfers
  • Appreciate the benefits of non-football revenue-increasing activities
  • Lower expectations - believe finishing in or around top 4 each year is over-achieving when considering the various characteristics of the other big clubs
Those are just rough and off the top of my head - I'm sure both ends would want to add some bullets, change the precise wording etc, but presumably the above is roughly how each 'side' sees it. And for me, both are perfectly legitimate interpretations of the facts, depending how you look at it. Most individuals will align with (or at least be closer to) one of the above more than the other, and in 90% of cases that means they are incapable of even recognising that the other is a legitimate point of view, which is the problem we so often have on here - people disagree with me so they must be stupid or not really Spurs fans etc. But we're better than that (well, some are - admittedly some aren't bright enough to discuss any of it meaningfully, but many certainly are, on both sides).

That being the case, neither side of the debate deserves the baiting, goading and derision that is often seen on here (and often from those capable of intelligent discussion, which is a shame) - not least because it doesn't achieve anything. We need to get away from the notion that there can only be one opinion, as the likelihood is that not a single one of us is fully 'right', and every single one of us can learn something from others if we just try to put our own interpretations aside for a minute and try to understand where they are coming from (even if we disagree with them).
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A very balanced post mate. And there are many points you raised on both sides that can be true at the same time.

We haven’t won anything, which is shit, but we have been unlucky not to do so. We have backed managers and made some good signings, but have also failed to spend at the right time and have signed some total shite too.

A couple of points I would have is that we do seem to spend a lot of energy on non football related activities, but these should filter on to the bottom line allowing us to spend more on the team. And I doubt very much Levy is the one handling the Beyoncé co very bookings. We’ll have a commercial team just getting in with stuff like that. And all clubs have such teams, we just happen to be pretty good at it. So I don’t think these events take away time from the football operations.

And on the expectation issue, we have no right to win anything. Nobody does. The journey of teams like Brighton, Brentford and Villa are quoted as how to do things right, but that journey from lower to mid table to top ten is a lot easier than the journey from 4th to 1st. I do believe that whilst we are aiming to win things, there should be an acceptance in the fanbase that this isn’t a right, no matter the cost of a ticket.

The issue you will have, as you will already see from the first disagree on your post, is you are leaving yourself open to those with such entrenched views, you’ll get nowhere. I’m not sure it’s a problem about being bright or otherwise, but I know the “in” side are the ones to see the bad as well as the good. The “out” see only bad. This is where the division comes in.
 
AberdeenYid said:
A very balanced post mate. And there are many points you raised on both sides that can be true at the same time.

We haven’t won anything, which is shit, but we have been unlucky not to do so. We have backed managers and made some good signings, but have also failed to spend at the right time and have signed some total shite too.

A couple of points I would have is that we do seem to spend a lot of energy on non football related activities, but these should filter on to the bottom line allowing us to spend more on the team. And I doubt very much Levy is the one handling the Beyoncé co very bookings. We’ll have a commercial team just getting in with stuff like that. And all clubs have such teams, we just happen to be pretty good at it. So I don’t think these events take away time from the football operations.

And on the expectation issue, we have no right to win anything. Nobody does. The journey of teams like Brighton, Brentford and Villa are quoted as how to do things right, but that journey from lower to mid table to top ten is a lot easier than the journey from 4th to 1st. I do believe that whilst we are aiming to win things, there should be an acceptance in the fanbase that this isn’t a right, no matter the cost of a ticket.

The issue you will have, as you will already see from the first disagree on your post, is you are leaving yourself open to those with such entrenched views, you’ll get nowhere. I’m not sure it’s a problem about being bright or otherwise, but I know the “in” side are the ones to see the bad as well as the good. The “out” see only bad. This is where the division comes in.
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Personally I agree with all of that - whilst at the same time respecting, listening to and trying to understand those who don't. ;)

With regard to your last paragraph above, that does sadly appear to be true, and is perhaps what has always swayed me in debates here where I've otherwise been on the fence. Neither 'side' is entirely innocent of course, there is often name-calling, people attack others simply posting facts or asking questions, people refuse to answer direct questions that challenge their arguments, it's often far from pretty on either side, but I do agree that in my experience (which may of course by influenced by my own persuasions) it is only the 'out' side that refuses to accept that someone else can hold a different but nevertheless legitimate opinion, and this for me it what costs them credibility. But as I say, I recognise that it could just be my own bias that makes me see it that way...
 
scarletjim said:
Personally I agree with all of that - whilst at the same time respecting, listening to and trying to understand those who don't. ;)

With regard to your last paragraph above, that does sadly appear to be true, and is perhaps what has always swayed me in debates here where I've otherwise been on the fence. Neither 'side' is entirely innocent of course, there is often name-calling, people attack others simply posting facts or asking questions, people refuse to answer direct questions that challenge their arguments, it's often far from pretty on either side, but I do agree that in my experience (which may of course by influenced by my own persuasions) it is only the 'out' side that refuses to accept that someone else can hold a different but nevertheless legitimate opinion, and this for me it what costs them credibility. But as I say, I recognise that it could just be my own bias that makes me see it that way...
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There’s nuance in the discussion on one side only bud. There’s no point in even trying to reason with the other.
 
John Thomas said:
You can take the piss all you like, mate. Fact is, I said Mourinho would fail under Levy and I said Conte would fail under Levy. Both times I was shouted down. Both times I was proven right.
We need to deal with facts.
Every manager Levy employs, regardless of their history or pedigree, ultimately fails.
Levy is the problem. Not the 15 managers he's hired and fired. I thought that was pretty obvious to all by now?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Did Poch fail? Did Redknapp fail? Did Ramos fail?

That’s 10 of the past 16 years.
 
scarletjim said:
Personally I agree with all of that - whilst at the same time respecting, listening to and trying to understand those who don't. ;)

With regard to your last paragraph above, that does sadly appear to be true, and is perhaps what has always swayed me in debates here where I've otherwise been on the fence. Neither 'side' is entirely innocent of course, there is often name-calling, people attack others simply posting facts or asking questions, people refuse to answer direct questions that challenge their arguments, it's often far from pretty on either side, but I do agree that in my experience (which may of course by influenced by my own persuasions) it is only the 'out' side that refuses to accept that someone else can hold a different but nevertheless legitimate opinion, and this for me it what costs them credibility. But as I say, I recognise that it could just be my own bias that makes me see it that way...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

One side is right and the other wrong. One side is stuck in the past and praising old achievements & the other is looking at the incompetence of recent years. There’s no need for nuance when you are right, and know with 100% certainty that this is the case.

The fanbase knows it too. 80% ENIC Out in both polls on our major forums. And that was before being 5-0 down to Newcastle in 20 mins or losing at home to Bournemouth, and before we realised we hired a fraud or we sacked both a manager and an assistant. I’d wager closer to 90-95% now. The ENIC in cause is now just a beacon for the deluded.

Finishing 8th & losing Kane will be the final nail in the ENIC in coffin. Their recent incompetence is on show for all, who cares if they did good work 5-10 years ago? What are they doing for us now?

I’ve said it before but I don’t even need to waste words on the ENIC in lot, I do it because I enjoy holding them accountable for their delusions. Every single result and major decision pushes people more towards realising the truth. Nobody has to even lift a finger, the football speaks for itself.

So no, frankly we don’t care whether we have credibility in your eyes or not. You are the tiny minority and we don’t need to win you over. If the performances of the team and choices of the board don’t, nothing will. You’ve made your damn bed.
 
scarletjim said:
Yep, I can see all of that being a legitimate point of view - but it's not the only legitimate point of view, that's my point.

Presumably if we boil it down to the basics:

ENIC / LEVY OUT:
  • ENIC / Levy have done lots of bad things in the last 20 years
  • Failure to win any trophies
  • Some poor / unsuitable manager appointments, many poor player transfers
  • Too much focus on non-football revenue-increasing activities
  • Failed to back Poch when it looked like we might be able to achieve 'next level'
  • Higher expectations - believe we should be seriously challenging for title / regularly winning trophies

ENIC / LEVY IN:
  • ENIC / Levy have done lots of good things in the last 20 years
  • Average league position better now than 20 years ago
  • Unfortunate not to win any trophies having lost several finals / finished 2nd in league
  • Some successful manager appointments, many good player transfers
  • Appreciate the benefits of non-football revenue-increasing activities
  • Lower expectations - believe finishing in or around top 4 each year is over-achieving when considering the various characteristics of the other big clubs
Those are just rough and off the top of my head - I'm sure both ends would want to add some bullets, change the precise wording etc, but presumably the above is roughly how each 'side' sees it. And for me, both are perfectly legitimate interpretations of the facts, depending how you look at it. Most individuals will align with (or at least be closer to) one of the above more than the other, and in 90% of cases that means they are incapable of even recognising that the other is a legitimate point of view, which is the problem we so often have on here - people disagree with me so they must be stupid or not really Spurs fans etc. But we're better than that (well, some are - admittedly some aren't bright enough to discuss any of it meaningfully, but many certainly are, on both sides).

That being the case, neither side of the debate deserves the baiting, goading and derision that is often seen on here (and often from those capable of intelligent discussion, which is a shame) - not least because it doesn't achieve anything. We need to get away from the notion that there can only be one opinion, as the likelihood is that not a single one of us is fully 'right', and every single one of us can learn something from others if we just try to put our own interpretations aside for a minute and try to understand where they are coming from (even if we disagree with them).

EDIT:
- By the way, for anyone who 'disagrees' on the basis of any of the bullet points, I've tried (admittedly quickly) to imagine what each 'side' would say, but if I've misrepresented any of them for someone who supports that side, please shout and I will happily amend.
- However for anyone who 'disagrees' on the basis that they don't believe other people can hold different opinions to them, then I give up, you can't have a meaningful conversation with people like that.
- I'd be happy to discuss by PM in a friendly 'come in peace' conversation with anyone who 'disagrees' and would be interested in discussing privately so we can understand each other better.
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Point of order.

We've never finished 2nd in pl.
 
Raumdeuterz said:
One side is right and the other wrong. One side is stuck in the past and praising old achievements & the other is looking at the incompetence of recent years. There’s no need for nuance when you are right, and know with 100% certainty that this is the case.

The fanbase knows it too. 80% ENIC Out in both polls on our major forums. And that was before being 5-0 down to Newcastle in 20 mins or losing at home to Bournemouth, and before we realised we hired a fraud or we sacked both a manager and an assistant. I’d wager closer to 90-95% now. The ENIC in cause is now just a beacon for the deluded.

Finishing 8th & losing Kane will be the final nail in the ENIC in coffin. Their recent incompetence is on show for all, who cares if they did good work 5-10 years ago? What are they doing for us now?

I’ve said it before but I don’t even need to waste words on the ENIC in lot, I do it because I enjoy holding them accountable for their delusions. Every single result and major decision pushes people more towards realising the truth. Nobody has to even lift a finger, the football speaks for itself.

So no, frankly we don’t care whether we have credibility in your eyes or not. You are the tiny minority and we don’t need to win you over. If the performances of the team and choices of the board don’t, nothing will. You’ve made your damn bed.
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Brilliant. I'd love to think this was genius-level satire, but I assume it's genuine. Proving my point wonderfully throughout - thank you. :)
 
scarletjim said:
Yep, I can see all of that being a legitimate point of view - but it's not the only legitimate point of view, that's my point.

Presumably if we boil it down to the basics:

ENIC / LEVY OUT:
  • ENIC / Levy have done lots of bad things in the last 20 years
  • Failure to win any trophies
  • Some poor / unsuitable manager appointments, many poor player transfers
  • Too much focus on non-football revenue-increasing activities
  • Failed to back Poch when it looked like we might be able to achieve 'next level'
  • Higher expectations - believe we should be seriously challenging for title / regularly winning trophies

ENIC / LEVY IN:
  • ENIC / Levy have done lots of good things in the last 20 years
  • Average league position better now than 20 years ago
  • Unfortunate not to win any trophies having lost several finals / finished 2nd in league
  • Some successful manager appointments, many good player transfers
  • Appreciate the benefits of non-football revenue-increasing activities
  • Lower expectations - believe finishing in or around top 4 each year is over-achieving when considering the various characteristics of the other big clubs
Those are just rough and off the top of my head - I'm sure both ends would want to add some bullets, change the precise wording etc, but presumably the above is roughly how each 'side' sees it. And for me, both are perfectly legitimate interpretations of the facts, depending how you look at it. Most individuals will align with (or at least be closer to) one of the above more than the other, and in 90% of cases that means they are incapable of even recognising that the other is a legitimate point of view, which is the problem we so often have on here - people disagree with me so they must be stupid or not really Spurs fans etc. But we're better than that (well, some are - admittedly some aren't bright enough to discuss any of it meaningfully, but many certainly are, on both sides).

That being the case, neither side of the debate deserves the baiting, goading and derision that is often seen on here (and often from those capable of intelligent discussion, which is a shame) - not least because it doesn't achieve anything. We need to get away from the notion that there can only be one opinion, as the likelihood is that not a single one of us is fully 'right', and every single one of us can learn something from others if we just try to put our own interpretations aside for a minute and try to understand where they are coming from (even if we disagree with them).

EDIT:
- By the way, for anyone who 'disagrees' on the basis of any of the bullet points, I've tried (admittedly quickly) to imagine what each 'side' would say, but if I've misrepresented any of them for someone who supports that side, please shout and I will happily amend.
- However for anyone who 'disagrees' on the basis that they don't believe other people can hold different opinions to them, then I give up, you can't have a meaningful conversation with people like that.
- I'd be happy to discuss by PM in a friendly 'come in peace' conversation with anyone who 'disagrees' and would be interested in discussing privately so we can understand each other better.
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  • 'ENIC / Levy have done lots of bad things in the last 20 years'
That one counld account for about 20 separate bullet points on its own
if your going to bullet point in such a specific context with their positives you can't try and lump so many negatives in one
 
scarletjim said:
Brilliant. I'd love to think this was genius-level satire, but I assume it's genuine. Proving my point wonderfully throughout - thank you. :)
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I really don’t care.

Every time Spurs play football my point is proven.

Sometimes one side is just wrong about something and there’s no nuance. This is one of these times. They’re running us in to the ground atm and there’s no good justifications for their recent decisions.
 
Raumdeuterz said:
One side is right and the other wrong. One side is stuck in the past and praising old achievements & the other is looking at the incompetence of recent years. There’s no need for nuance when you are right, and know with 100% certainty that this is the case.

The fanbase knows it too. 80% ENIC Out in both polls on our major forums. And that was before being 5-0 down to Newcastle in 20 mins or losing at home to Bournemouth, and before we realised we hired a fraud or we sacked both a manager and an assistant. I’d wager closer to 90-95% now. The ENIC in cause is now just a beacon for the deluded.

Finishing 8th & losing Kane will be the final nail in the ENIC in coffin. Their recent incompetence is on show for all, who cares if they did good work 5-10 years ago? What are they doing for us now?

I’ve said it before but I don’t even need to waste words on the ENIC in lot, I do it because I enjoy holding them accountable for their delusions. Every single result and major decision pushes people more towards realising the truth. Nobody has to even lift a finger, the football speaks for itself.

So no, frankly we don’t care whether we have credibility in your eyes or not. You are the tiny minority and we don’t need to win you over. If the performances of the team and choices of the board don’t, nothing will. You’ve made your damn bed.
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I cannot imagine a more tone deaf response to that post.
 
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