There’s exactly the same sentiment on here.
A 6-1 defeat leads to optimism. And you can understand why.
Change is feared by most but sometimes it’s needed.
The Times they are a changing.
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Management Levy / ENIC
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There’s exactly the same sentiment on here.
A 6-1 defeat leads to optimism. And you can understand why.
Change is feared by most but sometimes it’s needed.
The Times they are a changing.
Said before we need to hit rock bottom to move forward. Inwould welcome the championship if it brought drastic change. We would cull players but have enough resilience to withstand it financially and bounce back…. Would need to remove Levy though to really affect change needed
She’s a big part of the issue. I know people that have worked with her and like Levy, well intentioned but woefully out of her depth
Dunno if anyone else there saw them but I thought the black balloons were a bit rubbish. Loudest the Levy out chants have been since the last time we were playing Man U. Maybe it’s something about playing them!
It's cheesey.
Let's be honest. Petulant, childish and ridiculous gross exaggeration like this does your side of the argument (if it even still exists) no favours whatsoever.
Why do you say that? Some fans think short term pain is a better prospect long term for the club they love than 23 more trophyless years of on field failure.
It's a bit arrogant to say they hate the club they've followed all their life, isn't it? Or am I misunderstanding you?
One good thing to come out of the humiliation was Daniel Levy finally coming out and publicly taking responsibility. So the momentum for a better future grows. If we'd gone down to a meek 1-0 that wouldn't have happened.
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Here is a direct quote from the following post from yesterday:
Management - Levy / ENIC
"Those Levy wankers are tossers and need hounding for their bollock bullshit."
How is my comment that people say things like "Levy worshippers should be rounded up and shot" that different to the above? It's basically the same isn't it, or am I going mad?
This is why it's so hard to discuss with you - you simply won't accept the reality of what happens on both sides of the argument.
I know. Horribly insulting. Joins the ranks of the many ENIC in posters pretending to want discussion when really just wanting to pontificate.
‘Oh I’m so open to debate .. by which I actually mean call pretend I’m smarter than everyone else because I haven’t accepted reality.
This is why I gave up long ago actually debating this lot - all they want to do is get a smug feeling out of supporting the owners. That’s it.
One post. And nothing about being rounded up and shot. Not even remotely similar. Yet you talk in the plural sense painting Levy Out supporters as neanderthals.Here is a direct quote from the following post from yesterday:
Management - Levy / ENIC
"Those Levy wankers are tossers and need hounding for their bollock bullshit."
How is my comment that people say things like "Levy worshippers should be rounded up and shot" that different to the above? It's basically the same isn't it, or am I going mad?
This is why it's so hard to discuss with you - you simply won't accept the reality of what happens on both sides of the argument.
Disappointing
Of course it's both sides. As someone said yesterday. As more are Levy out than Levy in. You'll obviously see more from that side. When the situation was reversed it was the opposite. Trust me. I was on the end of it.
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I think mental illness was even brought back into it last night at some point?
And I was called a gooner earlier in the day
by the resident ENIC okey cokey specialistDoes anyone know what the exciting update this year was that Levy alluded to in his previous comms?
Are we yet to hear that or is it something that has already been announced?
Are we yet to hear that or is it something that has already been announced?
The go kart track probably
Right, let's see what I can do with this. Please be patient / gentle, and bear in mind what I'm trying to achieve here...
Again, thanks for your time - I don't know about you, but I find this kind of thing incredibly exhausting (though worthwhile those times where something useful is achieved, someone is better understood or whatever ).
I expect those supportive of ENIC would say that the infrastructure development and 'non-football revenue-generating' activities been far more impressive than those are many other clubs. I don't know, I don't profess to be an expert on any of this, but from the sidelines if you look at that side of the club in the last 20 years, it would be hard for a neutral to not be impressed and not consider that side of ENIC's performance excellent.
Absolutely fine, that's your prerogative, but others may think differently. Whilst I don't know much myself, I do know that we have a reputation for running a financially responsible organisation, and personally (my mother says this is my Jewish heritage coming through haha) I'd much rather that than win by doping. What Levy is trying to do is in many ways more impressive / commendable than simply throwing money at it like others have done, that's an easier route to success. (That's not necessarily saying he's done or doing it well, just that for some it's a commendable intention). On your latter point there, I don't think we have to disassociate interests in that way - for example if a guy does voluntary work because he enjoys it, is it not still beneficial for the charity / community in question? Of course Levy has his and ENIC's interests at heart, that's his job - that doesn't mean the stadium etc aren't great for the club or for us as fans too.
This I know even less about - as I said, I wasn't posting these as my own arguments, I was just doing an experiment to see which side is most capable of seeing the other's points of view. So when you say 'I would appreciate direct answers to these' I'm afraid I won't have them. So let's just say for want of argument that the above is an entirely valid criticism - great, then it becomes a sub-bullet to bullet 1 on the 'ENIC OUT' side in my original email. (Obviously it won't appear on the 'ENIC IN' list as it's a negative - if you're in favour of 'A' then in your argument you will list the pros of 'A' (and maybe the cons of 'B') - surely that's how debating works isn't it, you champion / focus on the points that support your case?). That's not to say the ENIC OUT don't or shouldn't accept this point - for example they might think that all CEOs lie sometimes, they have to (have you ever read a company accounts statement that didn't paint performance in a better light than it could?); or they might think it was obvious that the stadium would impact transfers, so not consider the 'lie' to be a big deal in comparison to the good things that Levy has done. Etc - but whatever their thoughts on it, they obviously believe the good done by ENIC outweighs any such bad.
I feel sad to read this. I've never put anyone on ignore and I never will - for me, it's much more important to hear what is being said by people you disagree with than people you agree with. Also I'm not sure what precisely is meant by 'good/bad faith' above. On both sides there are lots of underhand tactics, lots of lies, lots of claims made, challenged, then those challenges just ignored. I appreciate you do say 'IMO' - conversely from what I've read IMO that underhand behaviour is more on the OUT side, though I appreciate that might be my own unconscious biases etc.
As I say, I've done my best to give brief and basic answers above that might be what strong ENIC IN (or probably better to say 'Anti ENIC OUT') posters would say, but that was never my intention, if anything it was mostly just an experiment to see whether or not either side is able to accept that the other has a different opinion which whilst they may not agree with it, does make sense to 'the other side'. I do appreciate that I can't be fully objective as I've moved over the last few years (primarily as a result of what I've read on this forum) from 'owner ambivalent' to 'sceptical of ENIC OUT' (I think that's probably the best way to express it), but I have tried to be as neutral as I can be.
Again, thanks for your time - I don't know about you, but I find this kind of thing incredibly exhausting (though worthwhile those times where something useful is achieved, someone is better understood or whatever
).
Yeah but it can change again pretty quickly back in his favor, sometimes with a single game. I have been consistently Levy out, win or lose, because I know the dude will never change. This is not the same for many people and Levy knows it.
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I could easily find 10 more posts like that if you really wanted me to, we both know that.One post. And nothing about being rounded up and shot. Not even remotely similar. Yet you talk in the plural sense painting Levy Out supporters as neanderthals.
Disappointing
Of course it's both sides. As someone said yesterday. As more are Levy out than Levy in. You'll obviously see more from that side. When the situation was reversed it was the opposite. Trust me. I was on the end of it.
I think it's quite similar in its essence to what I said, but accept that you feel differently - I'll quote precisely if I need to mention something similar in future (though I doubt I will - I was just thanking Todd1882 for engaging the way he was, I normally just ignore the neanderthal stuff).
I certainly don't think all supporters on either side behave like neanderthals, but some on both sides do. It's not a big deal though - as above, they don't bother me that much. Tbh it bothers me more when clearly intelligent, informed, well-articulated posters resort to similar cheap attacks (again, on both sides). It's a shame they can't rise above that.
Appreciate your point about more support on one side will statistically mean more 'unhelpful' posts of that nature - I hadn't thought of that. I don't condone it on either side, and would be unhappy if I saw posts directed at you like that (which I absolutely believe you will have happened many times I bet). Indeed if you had come on here quoting a post from someone saying 'Those ENIC OUT wankers are tossers and need hounding for their bollock bullshit', I would have immediately agreed with you that it is 'unhelpful' at best (I'm not even sure what most of it means actually
). (Would have been nice to hear you say the same here about the post I quoted tbh (but hopefully you do think that even if you didn't say it here)).You won't get any of that kind of abuse from me anyway - if I lose my rag from time to time (and we pretty much all do, we're only human...) and break that promise, do refer me back to this post!
That's an interesting thought, and one which I've perhaps been 'lazy' about previously in terms of terminology. I guess we just need to think about what we mean by 'ENIC IN', or at least what they think of themselves as that's surely more relevant.
I don't think there is a group of people on here who go to matches with 'ENIC IN' banners, who protest in the streets against the anti-ENIC protesters, who would follow ENIC to another club if they sold Spurs and bought another club - and I'm sure no one here sensibly thinks that (or do they? Happy to be corrected if people have seen evidence of that). So I expect what we all call 'ENIC IN' probably splits into 2 groups (which probably overlap):
1. Those who would be sad to see ENIC sell up as they think ENIC is and/or has been good for the club.
2. Those who are simply sceptical of 'ENIC OUT' and so look like strong supporters of ENIC where in fact they just "don't see anything significantly wrong' with ENIC (or something like that).
I'm not sure about any of that, might all be bollocks, I'm just thinking out loud.
She’s saying that , and she doesn’t have to pay to watch it