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No, Jim...but I see where this is going wrong. I shall clear it up sharpish. I shall use my own bulletpoints
Presumably, that is Levy saying to the players that the club is gonna lose out on a lot of money?
Kane backs ‘great’ Mason and demands Spurs ‘be brave’ in Liverpool test
England captain refused to be drawn on his Spurs future after Manchester United fightbackwww.standard.co.uk
This is a really good article, for its genre.
Confirming that Kane, Dier, Lloris, Hojbjerg was the group that met with Levy, and the message seems to have been "lads, it's going to cost us a ton of money if you drop out of Europe, what the fuck?"
Easy to make that a parody of Levy, but what else is he supposed to say? There being candor internally is actually kind of encouraging, IMO.
Absolutely valid (and basically a sub-bullet of one of my bullets in the 'ENIC OUT' list in my original post). Not sure what you think this will achieve as I suspect all of your ENIC OUT points will be valid in my eyes, but I'll play along for now.
pls enlighten me
Well we’d probably be fucked financially and would be lucky to ever get back to the top half of the PL.
Ha ha! Yes. Utopia.Who knows, maybe one day ENIC will sell up to an owner who makes everyone happy, then we'll all be 'friends' on here!
Or we're all unhappy with Levy for selling up to someone equally as bad as he is.Ha ha! Yes. Utopia.
In fairness, the vast majority who are still here probably will be friends. I mean, the Newcastle fanbase seem pretty United after years of Mike Ashley abuse.
However, and this is only my opinion, when ENIC do sell up, a small minority hardcore on here will move with them
A club at the scale of modern Spurs going down is kind of a historically untested hypothesis.
Point 2: Since 2008, Spurs have won no major trophies while getting to a few finals (domestic and Euro) and semis (domestic). Having endured the 1st decade without a major trophy (the 2010s) would it be fair to characterize that record as under-performance for a club of our size/history/whatever else you'd like to include in a club's profile?Absolutely valid (and basically a sub-bullet of one of my bullets in the 'ENIC OUT' list in my original post). Not sure what you think this will achieve as I suspect all of your ENIC OUT points will be valid in my eyes, but I'll play along for now.
Well I'd be amazed if you're right about the last bit (what kind of freak 'supports' an owning company?) but if it happens I guess we'll know soon after as they'll presumably stop posting here. Haha if it does happen I bet every week one or other of us will be claiming 'x doesn't post any more, I reckon they were Levy-lovers or Levy-bots' etc.Ha ha! Yes. Utopia.
In fairness, the vast majority who are still here probably will be friends. I mean, the Newcastle fanbase seem pretty United after years of Mike Ashley abuse.
However, and this is only my opinion, when ENIC do sell up, a small minority hardcore on here will move with them
I can see that point of view, but for me, no. Getting that far but not quite lifting a trophy / winning the league has been, for me, more unfortunate than anything else. If we'd got nowhere near, and had a poor average league position in that period compared to (say) 20 years ago then I'd agree, but that's not the case. As I say, this is one where there are different definitions of success for different people, it's not all about trophies for everyone (the vast majority of clubs don't win any), so for me your view above is valid, and hence I respect it, but I have a different view (which for me is equally valid).
You are right that it is mostly untested. I wouldn’t say juventus is a perfect comparison as it would be much harder for us to recover due to the depth of the current EPL.
So, for you, the answer is NO...it is unfair to criticize the chairman/owners of a club established in 1882, viewed as part of a big 6 clubs in a country and, as such, was part of the establishing of the PL, for suffering the first trophy-deficient decade? And this is supported by the belief that this particular club, of course, popularly viewed as cup specialists, might be viewed by alternate means of success (league position, being near/putting the pressure on, etc) which is different for different people.
Yes that's about right - and thanks for paraphrasing my reply, I appreciate that.
The only change I'd make is minor - I wouldn't say it's 'unfair' to criticise - I'm saying that my criteria for success doesn't result in that criticism - for others like yourself with a different criteria, it's perfectly fair to criticise Levy etc (hence it being the 2nd bullet on my ENIC OUT list in my original post).
I disagree. The impact on revenue drop for that year is less than losing out on CL
Nimbewimble? Enjoy groundhog season then as you will be hearing the same complaints about Levy for another ten or tenth years
Mate, you're wasting your time.Right, let's see what I can do with this. Please be patient / gentle, and bear in mind what I'm trying to achieve here...
I expect those supportive of ENIC would say that the infrastructure development and 'non-football revenue-generating' activities been far more impressive than those are many other clubs. I don't know, I don't profess to be an expert on any of this, but from the sidelines if you look at that side of the club in the last 20 years, it would be hard for a neutral to not be impressed and not consider that side of ENIC's performance excellent.
Absolutely fine, that's your prerogative, but others may think differently. Whilst I don't know much myself, I do know that we have a reputation for running a financially responsible organisation, and personally (my mother says this is my Jewish heritage coming through haha) I'd much rather that than win by doping. What Levy is trying to do is in many ways more impressive / commendable than simply throwing money at it like others have done, that's an easier route to success. (That's not necessarily saying he's done or doing it well, just that for some it's a commendable intention). On your latter point there, I don't think we have to disassociate interests in that way - for example if a guy does voluntary work because he enjoys it, is it not still beneficial for the charity / community in question? Of course Levy has his and ENIC's interests at heart, that's his job - that doesn't mean the stadium etc aren't great for the club or for us as fans too.
This I know even less about - as I said, I wasn't posting these as my own arguments, I was just doing an experiment to see which side is most capable of seeing the other's points of view. So when you say 'I would appreciate direct answers to these' I'm afraid I won't have them. So let's just say for want of argument that the above is an entirely valid criticism - great, then it becomes a sub-bullet to bullet 1 on the 'ENIC OUT' side in my original email. (Obviously it won't appear on the 'ENIC IN' list as it's a negative - if you're in favour of 'A' then in your argument you will list the pros of 'A' (and maybe the cons of 'B') - surely that's how debating works isn't it, you champion / focus on the points that support your case?). That's not to say the ENIC OUT don't or shouldn't accept this point - for example they might think that all CEOs lie sometimes, they have to (have you ever read a company accounts statement that didn't paint performance in a better light than it could?); or they might think it was obvious that the stadium would impact transfers, so not consider the 'lie' to be a big deal in comparison to the good things that Levy has done. Etc - but whatever their thoughts on it, they obviously believe the good done by ENIC outweighs any such bad.
I feel sad to read this. I've never put anyone on ignore and I never will - for me, it's much more important to hear what is being said by people you disagree with than people you agree with. Also I'm not sure what precisely is meant by 'good/bad faith' above. On both sides there are lots of underhand tactics, lots of lies, lots of claims made, challenged, then those challenges just ignored. I appreciate you do say 'IMO' - conversely from what I've read IMO that underhand behaviour is more on the OUT side, though I appreciate that might be my own unconscious biases etc.
As I say, I've done my best to give brief and basic answers above that might be what strong ENIC IN (or probably better to say 'Anti ENIC OUT') posters would say, but that was never my intention, if anything it was mostly just an experiment to see whether or not either side is able to accept that the other has a different opinion which whilst they may not agree with it, does make sense to 'the other side'. I do appreciate that I can't be fully objective as I've moved over the last few years (primarily as a result of what I've read on this forum) from 'owner ambivalent' to 'sceptical of ENIC OUT' (I think that's probably the best way to express it), but I have tried to be as neutral as I can be.
Again, thanks for your time - I don't know about you, but I find this kind of thing incredibly exhausting (though worthwhile those times where something useful is achieved, someone is better understood or whatever
Could relegation result in drastic changes that improve us? Sure, but it’s low probability. Decent chance we get rid of levy and the replacement is not much better and then we are in a similar position in the championship.
