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Management Ange Postecoglou

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JimothyCF14 said:
Come on, we all know that's not why Redknapp got the boot. He got sacked for openly twerking for another job.

It's all relative. If we do scrape 5th it's objectively an improvement on last season. It's not like he took over Spurs and brought us down from challenging to 5th.
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This is where I wish Levy showed some astute leadership and wasn't so clueless about football. And let's be honest, he might be able to negiotiate a transfer and know football operations well, but he's definitely one of those guys we all meet in life who just doesn't get football. The sort of bloke that comes out with the most ridiculous takes and you basically ignore them.

Like that chat with Jose when Levy tried to big up Winks in the canteen, when any sensible Spurs fan knows Winks was utter shite and needed to be jogged on years before, just cringe worthy stuff. But I disgress, I would love Levy to finally show a bit of nous, and having studied our performances, abject defending, non existent organisation and just general shiteness from Ange since November, to just boot him early without wasting the summer and pre-season on a ship which is sinking with Ange as captain.

I would genuinely love to be wrong, I really would. but I just can't see it working. I think next season we will witness very quickly, that the team won't have improved at all from now. If Ange can't get the team firing despite all the time on the training ground this season, do people really think 6 weeks over the summer and 3 or 4 new signings will help? He isn't even getting the existing signings working. Look at Maddison, Bentancur, Sarr, Porro, Udogie, Vicario, Bissouma, Son, Kulu, their form has all fallen off a cliff. You could even argue Romero and VDV have started to look suspect recently.

People just can't compare this with Klopp and Arteta, it's ridiculous. Ange is far more likely to become the next Frank De Boer as he is to be the next genius.

I just can't see it with his system that we will start sweeping all before us. The absolute best I think we can hope for, is we will just become a richer version of Bielsa's Leeds. We will batter a few teams, get battered by a few more teams, but we will get laughed off by our serious rivals, and as soon as we face the likes of Arteta or Pep or any manager with a clue, they'll tear his tactics to shreds and we will probably finish around 5th - 8th.

Worst case is we do a Leeds because we can't defend.
 
Aphex said:
This is where I wish Levy showed some astute leadership and wasn't so clueless about football. And let's be honest, he might be able to negiotiate a transfer and know football operations well, but he's definitely one of those guys we all meet in life who just doesn't get football. The sort of bloke that comes out with the most ridiculous takes and you basically ignore them.

Like that chat with Jose when Levy tried to big up Winks in the canteen, when any sensible Spurs fan knows Winks was utter shite and needed to be jogged on years before, just cringe worthy stuff. But I disgress, I would love Levy to finally show a bit of nous, and having studied our performances, abject defending, non existent organisation and just general shiteness from Ange since November, to just boot him early without wasting the summer and pre-season on a ship which is sinking with Ange as captain.

I would genuinely love to be wrong, I really would. but I just can't see it working. I think next season we will witness very quickly, that the team won't have improved at all from now. If Ange can't get the team firing despite all the time on the training ground this season, do people really think 6 weeks over the summer and 3 or 4 new signings will help? He isn't even getting the existing signings working. Look at Maddison, Bentancur, Sarr, Porro, Udogie, Vicario, Bissouma, Son, Kulu, their form has all fallen off a cliff. You could even argue Romero and VDV have started to look suspect recently.

People just can't compare this with Klopp and Arteta, it's ridiculous. Ange is far more likely to become the next Frank De Boer as he is to be the next genius.

I just can't see it with his system that we will start sweeping all before us. The absolute best I think we can hope for, is we will just become a richer version of Bielsa's Leeds. We will batter a few teams, get battered by a few more teams, but we will get laughed off by our serious rivals, and as soon as we face the likes of Arteta or Pep or any manager with a clue, they'll tear his tactics to shreds and we will probably finish around 5th - 8th.

Worst case is we do a Leeds because we can't defend.
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Isn't that why he brought in football people around him now so he doesn't make hasty decisions and make the correct ones?

Also I find this whole revisionism about Arteta really weird, he had even less experience and learnt on the Woolwich job now all of a sudden he's the level Ange needs to aspire to, 2 years ago he was an absolute laughing stock with Woolwich fans screaming Arteta out.

The goalposts move so much in this debate even Kane would miss from 2 yards.
 
Aphex said:
This is where I wish Levy showed some astute leadership and wasn't so clueless about football. And let's be honest, he might be able to negiotiate a transfer and know football operations well, but he's definitely one of those guys we all meet in life who just doesn't get football. The sort of bloke that comes out with the most ridiculous takes and you basically ignore them.

Like that chat with Jose when Levy tried to big up Winks in the canteen, when any sensible Spurs fan knows Winks was utter shite and needed to be jogged on years before, just cringe worthy stuff. But I disgress, I would love Levy to finally show a bit of nous, and having studied our performances, abject defending, non existent organisation and just general shiteness from Ange since November, to just boot him early without wasting the summer and pre-season on a ship which is sinking with Ange as captain.

I would genuinely love to be wrong, I really would. but I just can't see it working. I think next season we will witness very quickly, that the team won't have improved at all from now. If Ange can't get the team firing despite all the time on the training ground this season, do people really think 6 weeks over the summer and 3 or 4 new signings will help? He isn't even getting the existing signings working. Look at Maddison, Bentancur, Sarr, Porro, Udogie, Vicario, Bissouma, Son, Kulu, their form has all fallen off a cliff. You could even argue Romero and VDV have started to look suspect recently.

People just can't compare this with Klopp and Arteta, it's ridiculous. Ange is far more likely to become the next Frank De Boer as he is to be the next genius.

I just can't see it with his system that we will start sweeping all before us. The absolute best I think we can hope for, is we will just become a richer version of Bielsa's Leeds. We will batter a few teams, get battered by a few more teams, but we will get laughed off by our serious rivals, and as soon as we face the likes of Arteta or Pep or any manager with a clue, they'll tear his tactics to shreds and we will probably finish around 5th - 8th.

Worst case is we do a Leeds because we can't defend.
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Barack Obama Applause GIF by Obama
 
Shadydan said:
Isn't that why he brought in football people around him now so he doesn't make hasty decisions and make the correct ones?

Also I find this whole revisionism about Arteta really weird, he had even less experience and learnt on the Woolwich job now all of a sudden he's the level Ange needs to aspire to, 2 years ago he was an absolute laughing stock with Woolwich fans screaming Arteta out.

The goalposts move so much in this debate even Kane would miss from 2 yards.
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I guess we will have to see.

It's a difficult one but I wouldn't call it revisionism. There is no doubt there is the benefit of hindsight, of course, but he did win the FA Cup in his first season, and that did, no matter what people say, do two things, gave some people the possibility of an idea that he might be something special, and it bought him time. Remember the much revered Poch won fuck all for us in over 5 years, so that cup win can't be sniffed at.

But the other important thing. and I'll be honest I can't remember when it started, but Woolwich did start looking good under Arteta at some point. And by good I mean they were generally very organised defensively, they often stranged the opposition with possession, but they lacked a cutting edge. And it didn't just happen in the last two years, their underlying performance data indicated it was coming together under Arteta at Woolwich far earlier than their results did. Which means that the general footy fan laughed when Woolwich bottled top 4 to us for example, and laughed when they invariably suffered a defeat or a string of them, but the data was worrying if you were a Spurs fan and paying attention and wanted to see them fail because it showed they were becoming quite the side.

Yes Arteta was a novice but he learnt under Pep in the PL and most importantly had played in the PL, that gives him an advantage over Ange. He also proved that he can adapt his tactics when required, can be pragmatic, something we aren't yet seeing from Ange.

Unfortunately under Ange, the data is absolutely awful for Spurs, and it does not indicate anything is being put togetehr at all in terms of being a team that will challenge for major trophies. The data very rarely lies, and I follow it closely for betting purposes as it's the best way to win, and Spurs are a joke basically this season. I sincerely hope it comes together, but at this moment it is pure hope and there's no data suggesting anything special is happening under Ange.

There is also no cup win, we exited pathetically to Fulham in the first round.
 
Aphex said:
This is where I wish Levy showed some astute leadership and wasn't so clueless about football. And let's be honest, he might be able to negiotiate a transfer and know football operations well, but he's definitely one of those guys we all meet in life who just doesn't get football. The sort of bloke that comes out with the most ridiculous takes and you basically ignore them.

Like that chat with Jose when Levy tried to big up Winks in the canteen, when any sensible Spurs fan knows Winks was utter shite and needed to be jogged on years before, just cringe worthy stuff. But I disgress, I would love Levy to finally show a bit of nous, and having studied our performances, abject defending, non existent organisation and just general shiteness from Ange since November, to just boot him early without wasting the summer and pre-season on a ship which is sinking with Ange as captain.

I would genuinely love to be wrong, I really would. but I just can't see it working. I think next season we will witness very quickly, that the team won't have improved at all from now. If Ange can't get the team firing despite all the time on the training ground this season, do people really think 6 weeks over the summer and 3 or 4 new signings will help? He isn't even getting the existing signings working. Look at Maddison, Bentancur, Sarr, Porro, Udogie, Vicario, Bissouma, Son, Kulu, their form has all fallen off a cliff. You could even argue Romero and VDV have started to look suspect recently.

People just can't compare this with Klopp and Arteta, it's ridiculous. Ange is far more likely to become the next Frank De Boer as he is to be the next genius.

I just can't see it with his system that we will start sweeping all before us. The absolute best I think we can hope for, is we will just become a richer version of Bielsa's Leeds. We will batter a few teams, get battered by a few more teams, but we will get laughed off by our serious rivals, and as soon as we face the likes of Arteta or Pep or any manager with a clue, they'll tear his tactics to shreds and we will probably finish around 5th - 8th.

Worst case is we do a Leeds because we can't defend.
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Aphex said:
I guess we will have to see.

It's a difficult one but I wouldn't call it revisionism. There is no doubt there is the benefit of hindsight, of course, but he did win the FA Cup in his first season, and that did, no matter what people say, do two things, gave some people the possibility of an idea that he might be something special, and it bought him time. Remember the much revered Poch won fuck all for us in over 5 years, so that cup win can't be sniffed at.

But the other important thing. and I'll be honest I can't remember when it started, but Woolwich did start looking good under Arteta at some point. And by good I mean they were generally very organised defensively, they often stranged the opposition with possession, but they lacked a cutting edge. And it didn't just happen in the last two years, their underlying performance data indicated it was coming together under Arteta at Woolwich far earlier than their results did. Which means that the general footy fan laughed when Woolwich bottled top 4 to us for example, and laughed when they invariably suffered a defeat or a string of them, but the data was worrying if you were a Spurs fan and paying attention and wanted to see them fail because it showed they were becoming quite the side.

Yes Arteta was a novice but he learnt under Pep in the PL and most importantly had played in the PL, that gives him an advantage over Ange. He also proved that he can adapt his tactics when required, can be pragmatic, something we aren't yet seeing from Ange.

Unfortunately under Ange, the data is absolutely awful for Spurs, and it does not indicate anything is being put togetehr at all in terms of being a team that will challenge for major trophies. The data very rarely lies, and I follow it closely for betting purposes as it's the best way to win, and Spurs are a joke basically this season. I sincerely hope it comes together, but at this moment it is pure hope and there's no data suggesting anything special is happening under Ange.

There is also no cup win, we exited pathetically to Fulham in the first round.
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This was Arteta's first full season when he had them in 15th, if fans were in the stadium he would have been sacked, honestly this revisionism is a joke, it's making me sick lol

lvrfy9nvkmca1.jpg


Also won the FA Cup with an Emery's team taking charge of 3 matches, you really want to count that? Because that's the exact same team he ripped up because they weren't compatible with his demands and he hasn't won a trophy since so let's not make out it was some masterstroke - THe same way you're dismissing our first 3 months as a bounce then you need to keep the same energy as his FA Cup win especially since he's been knocked out of about 14 cup comps since.

He finished 8th the season he took over then he finished 8th in his first full season making plenty of mistakes along the way (Purchasing Willian, Lokonga, Vieira, Tavares etc.. giving Auba a new contract)

Woolwich struggled initially but improved once he got better players so if you're willing to judge Arteta on that metric then you need to keep the same energy for Ange.

The funny thing is that people are ignoring the obvious comparison and that is Poch when he first came in - he is the best comparison, Ange has started a similar way like Poch did at Spurs (although Poch did much better in the cups) but they have an almost identical GC record and there was complaints about or defence and our inconsistency which improved with time.

You are however right about the fact that we are on a downward trend and this is a cause for concern but I think he's done enough to earn a 2nd year, he'll need so start well next season though.
 
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Shadydan said:
This was Arteta's first full season when he had them in 15th, if fans were in the stadium he would have been sacked, honestly this revosinim is a joke its making me sick lol

lvrfy9nvkmca1.jpg


Also won the FA Cup with an Emery's team taking charge of 3 matches, you really want to count that? Because that's the exact same team he ripped up because they weren't compatible with his demands and he hasn't won a trophy since so let's not make out it was some masterstroke - THe same way you're dismissing our first 3 months as a bounce then you need to keep the same energy as his FA Cup win especially since he's been knocked out of about 14 cup comps since.

He finished 8th the season he took over then he finished 8th in his first full season making plenty of mistakes along the way (Purchasing Willian, Lokonga, Vieira, Tavares etc.. giving Auba a new contract)

Woolwich struggled initially but improved once he got better players so if you're willing to judge Arteta on that metric then you need to keep the same energy for Ange.

The funny thing is that people are ignoring the obvious comparison and that is Poch when he first came in - he is the best comparison, Ange has started a similar way like Poch did at Spurs (although Poch did much better in the cups) but they have an almost identical GC record and there was complaints about or defence and our inconsistency which improved with time.

You are however right about the fact that we are on a downward trend and this is a cause for concern but I think he's done enough to earn a 2nd year, he'll need so start well next season though.
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Ok
 
erlee said:
there is no gung ho attack/.

everything breaks down (!!) once the wingers slow down on receiving the ball - looks up & can't see a straight path or beat a defender and passes it backwards. from there on there will be multiple short passes & then recycle back to the other flank.

Either his playbook/tactic is sh#t -or the players are.
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Attack! My arse we barely trouble the oppo goalie!
 
Shadydan said:
Woolwich struggled initially but improved once he got better players so if you're willing to judge Arteta on that metric then you need to keep the same energy for Ange.
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One was at his first ever managerial job, the other has like 2 decades of experience as football coach/manager. You lot defend Postecoglou by pointing out his achievements in pub leagues, but then you compare him against a complete newbie and tell people to judge him by the same metrics. Lol…
 
Shadydan said:
This was Arteta's first full season when he had them in 15th, if fans were in the stadium he would have been sacked, honestly this revisionism is a joke, it's making me sick lol

lvrfy9nvkmca1.jpg


Also won the FA Cup with an Emery's team taking charge of 3 matches, you really want to count that? Because that's the exact same team he ripped up because they weren't compatible with his demands and he hasn't won a trophy since so let's not make out it was some masterstroke - THe same way you're dismissing our first 3 months as a bounce then you need to keep the same energy as his FA Cup win especially since he's been knocked out of about 14 cup comps since.

He finished 8th the season he took over then he finished 8th in his first full season making plenty of mistakes along the way (Purchasing Willian, Lokonga, Vieira, Tavares etc.. giving Auba a new contract)

Woolwich struggled initially but improved once he got better players so if you're willing to judge Arteta on that metric then you need to keep the same energy for Ange.

The funny thing is that people are ignoring the obvious comparison and that is Poch when he first came in - he is the best comparison, Ange has started a similar way like Poch did at Spurs (although Poch did much better in the cups) but they have an almost identical GC record and there was complaints about or defence and our inconsistency which improved with time.

You are however right about the fact that we are on a downward trend and this is a cause for concern but I think he's done enough to earn a 2nd year, he'll need so start well next season though.
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Why are you ignoring the point he made about Arteta having worked with Pep for years, played under Wenger and played in the Prem for years as well?

Why are you ignoring the fact that Poch got the job here after doing well at Espanyol in La Liga under tough circumstances and then getting Southampton playing exciting football whilst bringing youngsters through in the Prem before getting a chance here?

Both backgrounds buy infinitely more time than tinpot trophies in footballing backwaters straightaway before factoring in the alarming and avoidable decline and defeats that have become the norm since November.

It's an unavoidable fact of life you get more leeway if you can prove you've done something before when you have a rough time of it, unfortunately you don't if you're a rookie which Ange is at this level but for what it's worth I don't think he'll be gone even if we get battered in all 3 games.
 
Aphex said:
This is where I wish Levy showed some astute leadership and wasn't so clueless about football. And let's be honest, he might be able to negiotiate a transfer and know football operations well, but he's definitely one of those guys we all meet in life who just doesn't get football. The sort of bloke that comes out with the most ridiculous takes and you basically ignore them.

Like that chat with Jose when Levy tried to big up Winks in the canteen, when any sensible Spurs fan knows Winks was utter shite and needed to be jogged on years before, just cringe worthy stuff. But I disgress, I would love Levy to finally show a bit of nous, and having studied our performances, abject defending, non existent organisation and just general shiteness from Ange since November, to just boot him early without wasting the summer and pre-season on a ship which is sinking with Ange as captain.

I would genuinely love to be wrong, I really would. but I just can't see it working. I think next season we will witness very quickly, that the team won't have improved at all from now. If Ange can't get the team firing despite all the time on the training ground this season, do people really think 6 weeks over the summer and 3 or 4 new signings will help? He isn't even getting the existing signings working. Look at Maddison, Bentancur, Sarr, Porro, Udogie, Vicario, Bissouma, Son, Kulu, their form has all fallen off a cliff. You could even argue Romero and VDV have started to look suspect recently.

People just can't compare this with Klopp and Arteta, it's ridiculous. Ange is far more likely to become the next Frank De Boer as he is to be the next genius.

I just can't see it with his system that we will start sweeping all before us. The absolute best I think we can hope for, is we will just become a richer version of Bielsa's Leeds. We will batter a few teams, get battered by a few more teams, but we will get laughed off by our serious rivals, and as soon as we face the likes of Arteta or Pep or any manager with a clue, they'll tear his tactics to shreds and we will probably finish around 5th - 8th.

Worst case is we do a Leeds because we can't defend.
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Spot on post by the way and that Winks bigging up was such a red flag at the time that stuck in mind as well, well remembered!
 
nasm_f said:
Spot on post by the way and that Winks bigging up was such a red flag at the time that stuck in mind as well, well remembered!
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a lot of spurs fans thought winks was actually good back then too!

i do think levy wants whats best for the club, i mean its in his interest anyway as a businessman for the club to be successful. but he clearly hasnt got a clue about football.

where he and joe lewis fucked up the hardest was not investing in the team when we had modric and bale! that was the time to slap 150m into the team. who knows where we would be right now.
 
nasm_f said:
Why are you ignoring the point he made about Arteta having worked with Pep for years, played under Wenger and played in the Prem for years as well?

Why are you ignoring the fact that Poch got the job here after doing well at Espanyol in La Liga under tough circumstances and then getting Southampton playing exciting football whilst bringing youngsters through in the Prem before getting a chance here?

Both backgrounds buy infinitely more time than tinpot trophies in footballing backwaters straightaway before factoring in the alarming and avoidable decline and defeats that have become the norm since November.

It's an unavoidable fact of life you get more leeway if you can prove you've done something before when you have a rough time of it, unfortunately you don't if you're a rookie which Ange is at this level but for what it's worth I don't think he'll be gone even if we get battered in all 3 games.
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Because I didn't think I have to dumb down such an obvious argument but I guess I was wrong. MY POINT is that these managers were given TIME, you can talk about all the little intertangibles and their backgrounds and histories all you like but both were given time to implement ideas.

And in another world if we didn't have a pandemic Arteta would have been toast and probably managing Real Sociedad or someone like that - Poch even said himself his job was saved by Kane after the Villa match because the team weren't responding and the fans were getting restless.

Again your point about Arteta is revisionist nonsense, he was an absolute laughing stock because he worked under Pep and people kept calling him coneboy, all of a sudden now you're sucking him off because his club has backed his vision and spent large amounts for him, it's honestly laughable how people change their arguments.

You can keep playing your records all you want mate, as I said he's not gonna get sacked as we have an Aussie tour coming up, just get used to it and quit your whinging.
 
Kekerinho said:
One was at his first ever managerial job, the other has like 2 decades of experience as football coach/manager. You lot defend Postecoglou by pointing out his achievements in pub leagues, but then you compare him against a complete newbie and tell people to judge him by the same metrics. Lol…
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How is this even a logical rebuttal, firstly I don't know who 'you lot' are but I've never bought up his achievemts from his previous leagues/clubs in this argument so I don't know what you're on about?

This is not you lying again where you were adamant I said something which I didn't actually say is it? You're making a terrible habit of that...don't make me have to shool you again please.

Secondly you saw the word metric and got an erection didn't you, the point is Arteta is now being lauded as the benchmark, he had to go through growing pains to get where he is today and made some errors on the way so so why isn't Ange being afforded the same energy especially if acknowledge where and who Ange has managed before?
 
Shadydan said:
This was Arteta's first full season when he had them in 15th, if fans were in the stadium he would have been sacked, honestly this revisionism is a joke, it's making me sick lol

lvrfy9nvkmca1.jpg


Also won the FA Cup with an Emery's team taking charge of 3 matches, you really want to count that? Because that's the exact same team he ripped up because they weren't compatible with his demands and he hasn't won a trophy since so let's not make out it was some masterstroke - THe same way you're dismissing our first 3 months as a bounce then you need to keep the same energy as his FA Cup win especially since he's been knocked out of about 14 cup comps since.

He finished 8th the season he took over then he finished 8th in his first full season making plenty of mistakes along the way (Purchasing Willian, Lokonga, Vieira, Tavares etc.. giving Auba a new contract)

Woolwich struggled initially but improved once he got better players so if you're willing to judge Arteta on that metric then you need to keep the same energy for Ange.

The funny thing is that people are ignoring the obvious comparison and that is Poch when he first came in - he is the best comparison, Ange has started a similar way like Poch did at Spurs (although Poch did much better in the cups) but they have an almost identical GC record and there was complaints about or defence and our inconsistency which improved with time.

You are however right about the fact that we are on a downward trend and this is a cause for concern but I think he's done enough to earn a 2nd year, he'll need so start well next season though.
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Barack Obama Applause GIF by Obama
 
Shadydan said:
Because I didn't think I have to dumb down such an obvious argument but I guess I was wrong. MY POINT is that these managers were given TIME, you can talk about all the little intertangibles and their backgrounds and histories all you like but both were given time to implement ideas.

And in another world if we didn't have a pandemic Arteta would have been toast and probably managing Real Sociedad or someone like that - Poch even said himself his job was saved by Kane after the Villa match because the team weren't responding and the fans were getting restless.

Again your point about Arteta is revisionist nonsense, he was an absolute laughing stock because he worked under Pep and people kept calling him coneboy, all of a sudden now you're sucking him off because his club has backed his vision and spent large amounts for him, it's honestly laughable how people change their arguments.

You can keep playing your records all you want mate, as I said he's not gonna get sacked as we have an Aussie tour coming up, just get used to it and quit your whinging.
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Fwiw, I did acknowledge he’s not getting sacked.

Fair enough about the cone boy stuff but my point was more about him being an ex Prem player who played for them as well working with Pep giving him more time pandemic or no.

The whole point being made is they were given more time as are most managers because their track record or their status at the highest level as a player although that’s not as much arguably these days.

These manager doesn’t have either so he’s got less margin for error and in my opinion he’s used that margin up although he’s very unlikely to go for all the points mentioned about the tour and him being a shield for levy, yes man who wont pressure the board for money etc which is a joke imo but is likely to play out as such.
 
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