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Performance How far away are we really from challenging the top 4 again ?

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Micky Bubbles said:
The data says otherwise - trophies are shared almost exclusively by the top 4 clubs in whichever season.




This is just projection/textbook soapbox grandstanding 😂 I haven't said anything to suggest i see Top 4 as the aim or that i would celebrate being in it the way you are suggesting so why have you responded with that BS - I want to win trophies and titles, I just recognise the steps of the ladder that need to be climbed in order to reach that point. You aren't a better or more real supporter because you don't understand that
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Almost exclusively? exactly my point...

Do you want me to list all the Teams that have won trophies that weren't in the top 4??? ergh pedantic...

*** EDIT ***
Man U, Chelsea & Liverpool have done it in the past being after top 4 so...hmm who else???

Also are you are Spurs fan? when was our last Trophy win vs our league finish? hmmmmm? I was there in the stadium when we lifted it so please let me know so it's more than possible...

By the way I just copied & pasted from another thread as this topic I've discussed in detail before. So no soapbox or projection just boredom from saying the same thing over and over again to people who think 'Progression = League Finish'

Want context? go find it - easy to do 'SEARCH CONTENT' I'm not trying to be 'right' I have my opinion you have yours but the facts are facts.
 
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guyt2030 said:
Almost exclusively? exactly my point...

Do you want me to list all the Teams that have won trophies that weren't in the top 4??? ergh pedantic...

*** EDIT ***
Man U, Chelsea & Liverpool have done it in the past being after top 4 so...hmm who else???

Also are you are Spurs fan? when was our last Trophy win vs our league finish? hmmmmm? I was there in the stadium when we lifted it so please let me know so it's more than possible...

By the way I just copied & pasted from another thread as this topic I've discussed in detail before. So no soapbox or projection just boredom from saying the same thing over and over again to people who think 'Progression = League Finish'

Want context? go find it - easy to do 'SEARCH CONTENT' I'm not trying to be 'right' I have my opinion you have yours but the facts are facts.
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The facts are that you have more chance of being successful if you are a good enough team to be in the top 4 regularly - splitting hairs over a few outliers doesn't change that. If someone was to ask you you to guess who would win more trophies in the next ten years either a) team that finishes in the top 4 positions of the table 8 times or b) a team that finishes there twice the smart money would be on team A and that's for good reason.

We could end up winning the EL this season - if we stuck by Ange next season would you be confident of us going on to win more? I wouldn't, but if we had followed up last seasons 5th place finish with a 4th or 3rd then I would be looking to the coming seasons thinking we're in a real good position to go on and win things - it's obviously not better than winning the EL but if you're trying to judge where you're heading then it's a marker
 
Micky Bubbles said:
The facts are that you have more chance of being successful if you are a good enough team to be in the top 4 regularly - splitting hairs over a few outliers doesn't change that. If someone was to ask you you to guess who would win more trophies in the next ten years either a) team that finishes in the top 4 positions of the table 8 times or b) a team that finishes there twice the smart money would be on team A and that's for good reason.

We could end up winning the EL this season - if we stuck by Ange next season would you be confident of us going on to win more? I wouldn't, but if we had followed up last seasons 5th place finish with a 4th or 3rd then I would be looking to the coming seasons thinking we're in a real good position to go on and win things - it's obviously not better than winning the EL but if you're trying to judge where you're heading then it's a marker
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Ten years in football is VERY unpredictable because of the very 'outliers' that exist. There are 3 Domestic Trophies a year plus a European and others if qualified to compete in.

No this isn't about Ange - I don't want this thread to go into the regurgitation of the Ange Thread it'll go into the weeds.

No I do not believe just because we came 3rd in the league (which has happened remember that year?) means we are in a 'better' place for Trophies the following season because the following season is the following season new signings, injuries, blah blah...you may think it's a marker hence our impasse because I think it isn't which can be proved by our own performance thereby proving my point, that is...

If we do not get over the line we do not win no matter what position in the league we are...obviously unless we get relegation but we aren't facing that right now...

Can you agree on that?
 
guyt2030 said:
Ten years in football is VERY unpredictable because of the very 'outliers' that exist. There are 3 Domestic Trophies a year plus a European and others if qualified to compete in.

No this isn't about Ange - I don't want this thread to go into the regurgitation of the Ange Thread it'll go into the weeds.

No I do not believe just because we came 3rd in the league (which has happened remember that year?) means we are in a 'better' place for Trophies the following season because the following season is the following season new signings, injuries, blah blah...you may think it's a marker hence our impasse because I think it isn't which can be proved by our own performance thereby proving my point, that is...

If we do not get over the line we do not win no matter what position in the league we are...obviously unless we get relegation but we aren't facing that right now...

Can you agree on that?
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I mean if your point is you haven't won until you've won then there isn't a discussion lol
 
Micky Bubbles said:
I mean if your point is you haven't won until you've won then there isn't a discussion lol
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I think you're seeing my point

So therefore if a team was 5th but haven't won anything then get 2nd in the PL the next season & still won nothing is that better than a team being 4th last season with no Trophies then becomes 11th then wins a Trophy - which team has had better success???

I'm actually using a real world example it's not a hypothetical.

The best marker to use when gauging Trophy potential is looking at the squad & it's form from the season it plays the competition. Yes 'football heritage' can come into play but just look at what happened to Real Madrid recently in the CL...
 
guyt2030 said:
I think you're seeing my point

So therefore if a team was 5th but haven't won anything then get 2nd in the PL the next season & still won nothing is that better than a team being 4th last season with no Trophies then becomes 11th then wins a Trophy - which team has had better success???

I'm actually using a real world example it's not a hypothetical.

The best marker to use when gauging Trophy potential is looking at the squad & it's form from the season it plays the competition.
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We're talking at cross purposes I think - you're judging outcomes I'm judging progress towards an eventual goal.
 
Micky Bubbles said:
We're talking at cross purposes I think - you're judging outcomes I'm judging progress towards an eventual goal.
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Nope we are talking about the same thing it's just you value 'progress' differently than me.

We have different mentalities - I see progress as winning a Title/Trophy that's it, simple.

I'm going to stop now as I've literally restated my premise & it's is fine you do not agree.

It was nice to have a discussion without insults, so I commend you for a good convo!
 
Shadydan said:
18 losses in the league is shit and being in 16th is the dogs but does anyone really believe we're this shit?

Like how far away are we from actually challenging for a top 4 place consistently or at least getting back to where we should be (in the top 6)

Are our players really this bad because we have overrated them or have they stagnated to a level where they're amongst the worst players in the division, or is it simply down to the coach/coaching staff and their methods that these players are playing under and they're suffering from no clear direction or lack of confidence when they play?

In that case what or who do we actually need to get back in contention, do we need an overhaul of staff/manager/players?
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What we need is a manager who manages the resources at his disposal and knows how to organise a defence. Our reputation for conceding sloppy goals is a psychological handicap that dogs us for every minute the team plays. Teams know they don't have to play well to score against us - they know we'll give them a goal if they just hang around our penalty area. If we score against them, they know there is a good chance they can pressure our defence into letting them back into the game. I don't know if people fully realise the psychological impact of the "It's only Tottenham" mindset we've instilled into all our opponents. Teams don't fear us.

Step one for any kind of progress in the future is to develop a reputation for a rock hard defence. It doesn't have to be at the expense of attacking play - the idea is to build a solid foundation to enable attacking play; trying to play attacking football when you can't defend is like trying to run before you can crawl which is why we're 16th in the table. The teams that other teams are afraid of are the ones they know they will struggle to score against - when you went 2-0 down against Alex Ferguson's Man United, the match was over. That's the standard we need to aim for. We need every goal we score to send a shiver down the other team's spine because they know they won't be able to equalise.
 
Don't give a shit about "challenging the top 4". Top 4's only benefit is CL qualification. We can get that by just winning 3 football matches now.

Winning the league? At least a generation away. We don't have the players, manager or scouting-recruitment-development setup necessary to do it.
 
MemphisWill said:
Don't give a shit about "challenging the top 4". Top 4's only benefit is CL qualification. We can get that by just winning 3 football matches now.

Winning the league? At least a generation away. We don't have the players, manager or scouting-recruitment-development setup necessary to do it.
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Agree with the first statement.

Oh from 2015 till 2019 our hearts were broken regarding the PL - also in the CL...may I ask in years how long a 'generation' is to you?
 
Kid Chameleon said:
What we need is a manager who manages the resources at his disposal and knows how to organise a defence. Our reputation for conceding sloppy goals is a psychological handicap that dogs us for every minute the team plays. Teams know they don't have to play well to score against us - they know we'll give them a goal if they just hang around our penalty area. If we score against them, they know there is a good chance they can pressure our defence into letting them back into the game. I don't know if people fully realise the psychological impact of the "It's only Tottenham" mindset we've instilled into all our opponents. Teams don't fear us.

Step one for any kind of progress in the future is to develop a reputation for a rock hard defence. It doesn't have to be at the expense of attacking play - the idea is to build a solid foundation to enable attacking play; trying to play attacking football when you can't defend is like trying to run before you can crawl which is why we're 16th in the table. The teams that other teams are afraid of are the ones they know they will struggle to score against - when you went 2-0 down against Alex Ferguson's Man United, the match was over. That's the standard we need to aim for. We need every goal we score to send a shiver down the other team's spine because they know they won't be able to equalise.
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So to sum up your points...

  • Have a Good Manager
  • Use our Spursyness against them like we did in the 2015/2019 era
  • Have a good Defence
  • Have a good Attack
  • Have a winning mentality
Getting Older Happy Birthday GIF by All Better
 
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