Yes, Ange had 3 months without Romero and VdV, so this season is worse really. And we can't/won't win a trophy.
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Manager Thomas Frank
- Thread starter The Fighting Cock
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This is the issue. So many people over hype some of the dross we have.
I don’t know what it’s founded upon.
Van de Ven is the only one I would say is good enough for a Top 6 side. Romero has his days, but too many like yesterday.
I get that. But clearly isn’t a manager issue any more, is it?
I don’t like Frank, but he’s just the latest in a long line of otherwise successful managers elsewhere to fail here.
Shows how far we fallen as a club when Merson gets it spot on like this …..
Our on-field leadership has been a big question for the last two seasons. And our mental weaknesses make us far too accident prone.
Romero is not an on-field leader - he is far too moody, petulant and inconsistent. All of that has an effect on most of the other players. His simple act of continuing to delay passes gives the wrong message to a team whose failure is to progress quickly through the middle third.
Van de Ven is probably our best on-field leader and Bergvall will be a leader in a year or two.
But I do wonder whether Van de Ven respects Frank. I noticed him, once again, walk past Frank after today's match without acknowledging Frank. Plus there was VdV's published praise of Ange this week.
Ange had his limitations but he always had the dressing room on his side. I don't think the same can be said for Frank.
On mental weaknesses - how many goals have we gifted in recent weeks due to poor thinking? The answer is most of the goals scored against us. A mentally strong, and well-led, team would never have conceded those goals, even allowing for the mediocre technical skills of many in our team.
Romero is not an on-field leader - he is far too moody, petulant and inconsistent. All of that has an effect on most of the other players. His simple act of continuing to delay passes gives the wrong message to a team whose failure is to progress quickly through the middle third.
Van de Ven is probably our best on-field leader and Bergvall will be a leader in a year or two.
But I do wonder whether Van de Ven respects Frank. I noticed him, once again, walk past Frank after today's match without acknowledging Frank. Plus there was VdV's published praise of Ange this week.
Ange had his limitations but he always had the dressing room on his side. I don't think the same can be said for Frank.
On mental weaknesses - how many goals have we gifted in recent weeks due to poor thinking? The answer is most of the goals scored against us. A mentally strong, and well-led, team would never have conceded those goals, even allowing for the mediocre technical skills of many in our team.
True......it's very humbling
Tne part about being brave on the ball is vital. We just want to see the team have a go, attack, give the fans something to get excited and passionate about
You’ve more of less touched on something that’s been on my mind for a while. Could he not have brought Mbuemo with him instead of to Man U. Or some of the better players he had at Brentford who could have been useful to us - Wissa, his compatriot Damsgaard or even Toney.
You don’t hear much if indeed anything from his ex-players and none keen to follow him.
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I'm not overhyping it. I'm saying it should be in the top five or six... the manager is getting nothing from them... we have a better squad than Brighton, Palace, Sunderland, Brentford and Everton... all these teams are above us. I can make a strong argument we have a better squad than United too.
And if we limp on for those next 6 with Frank and he doesn't get a decent enough points return to save his job, we leave the new manager (or caretaker) looking at the possibility of losing his first four games.
What a fucking mess we've gotten ourselves into... I've been looking at the table each week for a while now, worried more about the buffer to 18th than about what we need to do to secure a European slot.
It seems to be the case with the modern footballer in general and I don’t think it’s just limited to us.
They have a huge entourage that is continually blowing smoke up their arse whether it’s deserved or not.
Look how hyped Xavi was before he arrived, and yes he’s showed flashes, but nothing to warrant the hype generated around him.
Just petulant children - if we were winning, they’d be gushing. Players aren’t working hard enough and have lost Ange who they loved.
I see it in the classroom all the time: all the talent in the world, but don’t want to work as hard as they need to. It’s not just a step-up for Frank but - apart from Romero and KM - for most of the squad - this is their biggest gig and they don’t have the mindset to achieve.
Bale, Kane, Son, Vetonghen, Toby, even Walker - incredible diligence and hard work - irrespective of who the coach is.
What about this lot?
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It goes to pot once Xavi is sent off, up until then it was fine.
All this lethargic standing around and pointing in the set play that was also happening against much inferior teams hints strongly at inadequate coaching, but that's not even my biggest issue.
The following kind of apparent confusion in transition, a pattern of play that should be significantly easier to master than the set play, is way more concerning. You can see the same kind of pointing and arm waving in these sequences as well.
The following kind of apparent confusion in transition, a pattern of play that should be significantly easier to master than the set play, is way more concerning. You can see the same kind of pointing and arm waving in these sequences as well.
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So, to recap, we:- Can't play out from the back, often having to punt it after a few short passes
- Can't break down teams that sit back
- Can't get out in transition in a coherent manner
I totally hold my hands up and admit at the start I thought this could be a smart appointment and he'd be able to adjust to a bigger club.
I just don't think this is ever going to work. It's not the results, I would fully support it if there were real glimmers of something brewing that might eventually take off. But it's all just so meh.
I'm never going to call him a cunt or boo him, I just think he's out of his depth. Problem is now I just don't know who we get in to replace him mid season. If we do push the panic button there's a chance it could even somehow get worse if we get it wrong.
I just don't think this is ever going to work. It's not the results, I would fully support it if there were real glimmers of something brewing that might eventually take off. But it's all just so meh.
I'm never going to call him a cunt or boo him, I just think he's out of his depth. Problem is now I just don't know who we get in to replace him mid season. If we do push the panic button there's a chance it could even somehow get worse if we get it wrong.
Journalists on Sunday supplement said similar this morning. A set of players with questionable characters including the captain who can’t behave like he did and sets the wrong example.
They also said they don’t see Frank improving the team but that it is a sub standard squad which needs a lot of work.
Was a good summary of basically what we have all been saying on here for weeks but it was good to hear it echoed by people not fans of the club.
A club in the shit basically.
Is it coaching though or the players failing to put in enough effort for whatever reason?All this lethargic standing around and pointing in the set play that was also happening against much inferior teams hints strongly at inadequate coaching, but that's not even my biggest issue.
The following kind of apparent confusion in transition, a pattern of play that should be significantly easier to master than the set play, is way more concerning. You can see the same kind of pointing and arm waving in these sequences as well.
----------So, to recap, we:
What is this team working on in training sessions exactly?
I find it all a bit bewildering as I never watched Brentford play and think they looked poorly coached.
I think this goes far deeper than the manager and there seems to be a general malaise that has permeated throughout the club. I really fear we may not break this until there is a total change in ownership.
I don't know if there's something in the water at the training ground or something that makes everyone we sign turn into lazy pisstakers the moment they arrive. Or it could be cultural, like a "Spurs are always mediocre, it's fine to fuck around here". The fact this happened under Jose, Conte, Nuno, Ange and now Frank means it's seeping down from somewhere higher up.
Like the club culture is "we won a pot and our facilities are amazing, job done" vibe. No pushing to the next level. It's written through our club like a manky mouldy stick of rock
If you look at the squad, who are the genuine example setters and leaders we have left? For years it was Son, Kane and Lloris - and people questioned their lack of killer instinct and natural leadership at times - but at least they were the most consummate, hardworking professionals imaginable who would've kept a certain standard in training and level of expectation.
Romero obviously has some kind of aura about him from the World Cup and the players respect him, but he's never been a reliable example on the pitch for us and his English is iffy at best. Beyond him, who is there? Arguably the next best natural leaders are Maddison and Kulusevski and they're not involved. VdV and Vicario...meh. Palhinha maybe? Tricky when he's a loanee.
Everyone's either a bit too young and nice or aloof and uncaring. I imagine they all get along pretty well but is there that real deep sense of unity and collective demanding the highest standards? I think we had some of that for a little while under Ange and Conte (and Poch of course) but right now I don't see it at all.
You hear that cunt John Terry talk about the peak years at Chelsea how they'd basically test every new signing cos their standards and expectations were so high - you had to fight to survive even in training. We're lightyears from that right now.
in the aftermath of last night and where we are in the table, imo frank has to be sacked. This cant go on limping to defeats.