Manager Thomas Frank

[Percy Clay]

He's fit to play.

Richy, Brennan, Kudus and Tel cost 180 million.

Muani's loan and Odebert's undisclosed fee is on top of that.

None of this is my fault btw.

Just saying.

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It's a waste of time trying to have a sensible discussion with him. He's a genuine fan, and his heart is in the right place. But, he is so committed to his one eyed view of the world no amount of objective observation has any impact.

 

[TeamSpirit™]

Why is it that everyone is judging 3 months of football after nigh-on two years of relegation form, with key attacking players missing, and useless ones signed, as being the 'totality' of his style?

He's just signed from a club that sold 2 of their front three like hot-cakes because of how well his attack worked.

He's been given lame ducks here. Of course it hasn't transferred over yet

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He’s not had 3, he’s had 6 with a full preseason. At this stage I should be seeing something

Either Ange deserved to be sacked because he had us underachieving majorly or it’s turned out that it was par for the course, and you shouldn’t keep harking back to the predecessors tenure. Choose an option please.

If we had 2 years of relegation form, we’d be in the championship.

Frank chose Palhinha. Frank approved of extending Bentancur. Frank enjoyed the strongest transfer window that a Spurs Manager has had in eons.

Frank chooses to have Porro punting it to Kudus as his no1 open play tactic.

Frank chooses to completely ignore the concept of midfield progression - the team is lowest for through balls in the league

Frank actively chooses to use Bergvall and Gray as number 10’s and constantly shifts Simon’s out wide.

He actively chooses to use RKM or Richy as a winger, for the sake of his duels fetish (is it fencing or football?)

Frank consistently talks the club down, the fans down, because he wants to lower our expectations, because ultimately has a low ceiling.

He wants us to be Brentford North. A bus stop in Haringey. Is that what you want?

 

[Kosher Kid]

It's a waste of time trying to have a sensible discussion with him. He's a genuine fan, and his heart is in the right place. But, he is so committed to his one eyed view of the world no amount of objective observation has any impact.

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I feel it's my duty to educate him Percy.

I stay on task.

I will persevere.

 

[CJJ]

We have, fit:
Richarlison, Kolo Muani, Johnson, Kudus, Tel, Odobert and Simmons

Are you genuinely telling me a decent coach couldnt get some sort of tune out of that group? That its just impossibe until we buy more players/get Solanke/Maddison/Kulusevski back?

If so - I fundamentally disagree.

I think a manager with attacking intentions gets a unit out of that lot, sets a system up to get the best out of them - and we offer an actual threat when we play teams. Rather than 0xg.

It might not be prime Barca, it might not be the managers preferred way of playing - compromises are always there - but a proper manager works with what he has and gets the best out of them, while trying to embed the ways of playing in the team they want longer term.

Your answer seems to be, we cant expect anything from the manager because he only has available the Brazilian starting forward, a French international, Dutch international, Ghanaian International and some talented younger players...

As I said - we buy those extra players - you think Franks suddenly going to set us up completely differently? Have us dominating teams? Pushing them back? If you do, good luck to you - but I dont see that at all

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Remind us all how much success the last "attacking manager" had out of most of them?

Brentford just sold Wissa and Mbuemo, who both scored 20 goals each in a Frank tactic, with supposedly a worse squad. Shade got a further 12.

That's 50 Premier League goals across the front three players, and you're telling me/us that it's not because Tel/Xavi/Muani have been total dog doo.

Not least, coming from the same person that a week ago said:

I think just in general terms Solanke is a decent footballer, good enough touch, can hold it, play off to people...

Nothing mind blowing - but levels above Richarlison

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So which is it? How is the likes of Solanke missing not a factor? Tel was a 1-in-5 scorer at Bayern, and Luis Diaz is 3 goals off matching his total there already.



Absolutely no one is making a front with Muani, Tel, and Xavi prolific because they have never been those types of players that would get those Mbuemo/Wissa numbers even in weak leagues

 

[postbox]

Remind us all how much success the last "attacking manager" had out of most of them?

Brentford just sold Wissa and Mbuemo, who both scored 20 goals each in a Frank tactic, with supposedly a worse squad. Shade got a further 12.

That's 50 Premier League goals across the front three players, and you're telling me/us that it's not because Tel/Xavi/Muani have been total dog doo.

Not least, coming from the same person that a week ago said:



So which is it? How is the likes of Solanke missing not a factor? Tel was a 1-in-5 scorer at Bayern, and Luis Diaz is 3 goals off matching his total there already.



Absolutely no one is making a front with Muani, Tel, and Xavi prolific because they have never been those types of players that would get those Mbuemo/Wissa numbers even in weak leagues

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I think Solanke is levels above Richarlison. That doesn't mean I think Richarlison is useless, or that we can't expect him to be a serviceable forward if used right. Both points can be true at once.

I don't give a fuck about the last attacking manager, it's the past. I care about the current manager and how he performs.

Right now I think he's no where near good enough.

You have excuses for him. As I say, fundamental disagreement

 

[Fattynomates]

Remind us all how much success the last "attacking manager" had out of most of them?

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[CJJ]

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how many shots on goal did we have in the final?

 

[Fattynomates]

how many shots on goal did we have in the final?

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Please feel free to Correct me if I’m wrong but I thinks it’s goals scored that win games and finals , not shots on goal and we scored 1 and they scored none!
Johnson again ole ole

 

[CJJ]

I think Solanke is levels above Richarlison. That doesn't mean I think Richarlison is useless, or that we can't expect him to be a serviceable forward if used right. Both points can be true at once.

I don't give a fuck about the last attacking manager, it's the past. I care about the current manager and how he performs.

Right now I think he's no where near good enough.

You have excuses for him. As I say, fundamental disagreement

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This is the issue with these arguments.

You can't have expectations about the current manager and say "I don't care about evidence".

Your argument for Frank hinges on expectation, and that expectation is based on a fantasy of "would be doing better if tactics were attacking", even though the most attacking manager in recent history of the PL couldn't get anything out of them.

It doesn't hold water, and just comes across as making excuses to criticise

 

[CJJ]

Please feel free to Correct me if I’m wrong but I thinks it’s goals scored that win games and finals , not shots on goal and we scored 1 and they scored none!
Johnson again ole ole

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That's just irrelevant trolling. I have never criticised Johnson, or the goal, or his part in it.

The point you've interrupted with is using the EL as a rebuttal of the previous manager accomplishing attacking output from players. It's Wurzel Gummage levels of straw man.

 

[TeamSpirit™]

Remind us all how much success the last "attacking manager" had out of most of them?

Brentford just sold Wissa and Mbuemo, who both scored 20 goals each in a Frank tactic, with supposedly a worse squad. Shade got a further 12.

That's 50 Premier League goals across the front three players, and you're telling me/us that it's not because Tel/Xavi/Muani have been total dog doo.

Not least, coming from the same person that a week ago said:



So which is it? How is the likes of Solanke missing not a factor? Tel was a 1-in-5 scorer at Bayern, and Luis Diaz is 3 goals off matching his total there already.



Absolutely no one is making a front with Muani, Tel, and Xavi prolific because they have never been those types of players that would get those Mbuemo/Wissa numbers even in weak leagues

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Frank’s tactics are suited for a team that needs 50 yards of space to run into.

Hes never getting that at Spurs like he enjoyed at Brentford and he is showing little sign of adapting to that reality.

The comparison between Tel and Luis Diaz is beyond disingenuous; currently Tel had a slightly better goal per minute stat for Bayern than Diaz (139 vs 145) notwithstanding that Diaz is 8 years older and at the peak of his powers now.

In the last 2 seasons, Simons had 38 G/A in 57 games as a pure 10 for Leipzig, and what does Frank do? Put him on a the left touch line with no technical players to link up with and Spence as a right footer behind him.

I keep hearing about how adaptable and pragmatic Frank is, but all your excuses are doing is convincing me that he’s a massive fraud in a job that’s too big for him.

 

[Fattynomates]

That's just irrelevant trolling. I have never criticised Johnson, or the goal, or his part in it.

The point you've interrupted with is using the EL as a rebuttal of the previous manager accomplishing attacking output from players. It's Wurzel Gummage levels of straw man.

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You asked
“Remind us all how much success the last "attacking manager" had out of most of them?”

I’d say winning a Major European trophy counts as pretty successful if you ask me , any way I’m not doing this , as your going to desperate lengths already asking “how many shots on goal we had” as if it makes any difference to the fact we won it.
Anyway like I just said I’m not doing this tonight , I hope you have a good New Year’s Eve!

 

[CJJ]

You asked
“Remind us all how much success the last "attacking manager" had out of most of them?”

I’d say winning a Major European trophy counts as pretty successful if you ask me , any way I’m not doing this , as your going to desperate lengths already asking “how many shots on goal we had” as if it makes any difference to the fact we won it.
Anyway like I just said I’m not doing this tonight , I hope you have a good New Year’s Eve!

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Try reading the context of the point instead of just going on a blind windup

Management - Thomas Frank

Imo frank should have a behind closed doors friendly or two for players like scarlett and Tel against a really crap team so they can smash in a few goals. Scarlett must be getting close to getting the nod for first team.

thefightingcock.co.uk

The "success" in context is getting the listed players to produce some xG.

That didn't happen last season

 

[postbox]

This is the issue with these arguments.

You can't have expectations about the current manager and say "I don't care about evidence".

Your argument for Frank hinges on expectation, and that expectation is based on a fantasy of "would be doing better if tactics were attacking", even though the most attacking manager in recent history of the PL couldn't get anything out of them.

It doesn't hold water, and just comes across as making excuses to criticise

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I think Frank should be doing better than he is, with what he has available, simple as that.

I say the same of Ange, if he was prepared to actually structure some defence he could have been great. It's old ground though so why labour it?

Old manager wasn't good enough, irrelevant to whether current manager is good enough.

I noticed you swerved completely this:
We have, fit:
Richarlison, Kolo Muani, Johnson, Kudus, Tel, Odobert and Simmons

Are you genuinely telling me a decent coach couldnt get some sort of tune out of that group?

And this is the crux.

You seem happy Frank is getting the max out of the group, and want to blame the players as not good enough.

I dont share that view. I think he should be doing far better.

And I don't think that's fantasy.

 

[CJJ]

I noticed you swerved completely this:
We have, fit:
Richarlison, Kolo Muani, Johnson, Kudus, Tel, Odobert and Simmons

Are you genuinely telling me a decent coach couldnt get some sort of tune out of that group?

And this is the crux.

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I didn't swerve it - you have "swerved" my reply:

So which is it? How is the likes of Solanke missing not a factor? Tel was a 1-in-5 scorer at Bayern, and Luis Diaz is 3 goals off matching his total there already.

Absolutely no one is making a front with Muani, Tel, and Xavi prolific because they have never been those types of players that would get those Mbuemo/Wissa numbers even in weak leagues

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In turn, you should avoid swerving my point: How is it that this so called useless coach got 50 premier league goals out of Wissa, Mbuemo, and Shade alone last season if he wasn't playing attacking football or a decent coach?


As a slight edit here, it's borderline mental that people will straight-faced say we should sell Richarlison, because he's apparently the worst footballer they've ever seen, and in the Frank thread will directly imply he should be getting more than the 15-20 goals he's on target for.

 

[Fattynomates]

You seem happy Frank is getting the max out of the group, and want to blame the players as not good enough.

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The last manager was the problem and the players were fine , new manager comes in and suddenly it’s the players and not the manager !
I’m with you , the last manager wasn’t good enough in the PL and paid the price for our terrible league form , however if we are now saying it was the players and not the manager does that absolve Ange?
Personally I think Frank is not getting enough out of the players we have and he has shown nothing to suggest he can do so .


Also if it wasn’t obvious already I’m joking about Ange not being part of the problem in the PL , but surely if posters are now saying the squad is not good enough then you would think a manager who got 5th in his first season and won the EL in his second with mostly the same squad would get some more respect , and I’m far from a Ange fanboy , I guess the point I’m trying to make is , you can’t blame the manager for last season and then try and blame the players as an excuse to keep the new manager

 

[postbox]

I didn't swerve it - you have "swerved" my reply:



In turn, you should avoid swerving my point: How is it that this so called useless coach got 50 premier league goals out of Wissa, Mbuemo, and Shade alone last season if he wasn't playing attacking football or a decent coach?


As a slight edit here, it's borderline mental that people will straight-faced say we should sell Richarlison, because he's apparently the worst footballer they've ever seen, and in the Frank thread will directly imply he should be getting more than the 15-20 goals he's on target for.

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So you don't think we could get a decent return out of that group. I disagree.

Interesting, your point re Brentford, they lost all those goals and are still scoring just as many so far as I can see - seems maybe a good coach can adapt and get the best from their squad.

Maybe Franks impact there wasn't what we thought it was?

Or, maybe, he's just not doing the job well here?

 

[CJJ]

So you don't think we could get a decent return out of that group. I disagree.

Interesting, your point re Brentford, they lost all those goals and are still scoring just as many so far as I can see - seems maybe a good coach can adapt and get the best from their squad.

Maybe Franks impact there wasn't what we thought it was?

Or, maybe, he's just not doing the job well here?

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Andrews was his assistant, so he's basically carrying the same momentum and methods that Frank helped to produce over a number of years there. It's not like he was a random person with a different system proving A/B tests. Neither should a person expect anything to particularly crumble in the immediate stage. If Keith (or Brenford) fucks anything up, it'll be beyond January at the earliest.

Generally, the main change so far is that Thiago has stepped in for Wissa and is about par for his output. Shade is about par to match his output from last season. They are still missing a 20-goal winger in their output (Ouattara quite far off replacing Mbuembo, and Reiss Nelson hasn't really featured)


So far, I'd say he has got a decent return out of Richarlison, but Kolo Muani is basically a one-season wonder that PSG don't want because he is a bit shit (let's be honest). Xavi Simons was sold by Barcelona, and since PSG twice - so is still quite far from a player anyone should "expect" to be getting a decent return from. Similarly, at this stage, Tel is little more than a 'potential' signing who has done absolutely nothing (bit of a Bayern reject and not a £30m player; we all seem to agree). I like Odobert, as he's a "bums off seats" player who I think is by far the best LW in the squad, but it isn't saying much

I just don't understand the logic in expecting more from this group than they've ever done before in their career. I'm pretty sure, for example, that this is Richarlisons most proflic seasons so far, with 7 PL goals in 18 games (0.39 goals per game). The most he's ever had is 13 from 35 (0.37 goals per game) at Everton. Kudus is putting the kind of numbers you'd expect from him.

If Son was still here with 2 or 3 goals, then there might be a point to be made, but with Maddison, Solanke, and Kulusevski fully fit, I wouldn't seriously see Muani, Johnson or Tel getting anything but token sub minutes. Kudus would probably be rotated a lot more too.

 

[postbox]

Andrews was his assistant, so he's basically carrying the same momentum and methods that Frank helped to produce over a number of years there. It's not like he was a random person with a different system proving A/B tests. Neither should a person expect anything to particularly crumble in the immediate stage. If Keith (or Brenford) fucks anything up, it'll be beyond January at the earliest.

Generally, the main change so far is that Thiago has stepped in for Wissa and is about par for his output. Shade is about par to match his output from last season. They are still missing a 20-goal winger in their output (Ouattara quite far off replacing Mbuembo, and Reiss Nelson hasn't really featured)


So far, I'd say he has got a decent return out of Richarlison, but Kolo Muani is basically a one-season wonder that PSG don't want because he is a bit shit (let's be honest). Xavi Simons was sold by Barcelona, and since PSG twice - so is still quite far from a player anyone should "expect" to be getting a decent return from. Similarly, at this stage, Tel is little more than a 'potential' signing who has done absolutely nothing (bit of a Bayern reject and not a £30m player; we all seem to agree). I like Odobert, as he's a "bums off seats" player who I think is by far the best LW in the squad, but it isn't saying much

I just don't understand the logic in expecting more from this group than they've ever done before in their career. I'm pretty sure, for example, that this is Richarlisons most proflic seasons so far, with 7 PL goals in 18 games (0.39 goals per game). The most he's ever had is 13 from 35 (0.37 goals per game) at Everton. Kudus is putting the kind of numbers you'd expect from him.

If Son was still here with 2 or 3 goals, then there might be a point to be made, but with Maddison, Solanke, and Kulusevski fully fit, I wouldn't seriously see Muani, Johnson or Tel getting anything but token sub minutes. Kudus would probably be rotated a lot more too.

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You think Frank is doing the absolute best he can with the group?

Simple yes/no

I say no

If you say yes, fair enough - we can agree to disagree

 

[CJJ]

You think Frank is doing the absolute best he can with the group?

Simple yes/no

I say no

If you say yes, fair enough - we can agree to disagree

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It's too nuanced and would be taken out of context given a binary answer.

Put simply, I think Frank is experiencing the exact same issues every other big club has had with Muani, Simons, and Tel.
He's doing better (for output) than any manager has ever done with Richarlison.
Kudus has more assists per game for Spurs than he's had for any club before in his career.

So it leans towards a 'Yes', if we are basing on statistics and evidence, instead of pure unsubstantiated opinion.


It's like me asking for a simple yes/no for "You think Frank would be doing no better if Maddison, Kulusevski, and Solanke had been fully fit all season?"