Match Tottenham Hotspur v Chelsea (A) - Premier League - 19th May, 8.15pm

[thinktank]

View: https://x.com/footyinsider247/status/2057072596504482291

 

[Timberwolf]

Good post. The Johnson deal was a good one for us , he's been turd for Palace.
Not replacing and / or using the money on Gallagher was the issue.
Just obvious , easy signings as they become available. Where's the planning ? The scouting ?
How can Brentford , Brighton , Bournemouth, Palace etc continually find these players for not much money but we pay double or treble for duds despite having a bigger budget not only for signings but wages and a bigger scouting network.

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Think it's simply a matter of those clubs being run by very smart savvy operators who, in turn, hire other very smart savvy people.

Levy was such a control freak I don't think he ever really allowed us to have a functioning modern football operation. Every time he tried to build a coherent structure, it would implode within a few years - often due to his meddling I imagine.

And you're the best in the business do you really want to work for a guy that can't delegate and won't let you get in with your job? Maybe that's why we end up with weaker options like Lange? Or guys with baggage like Paratici? No-one ever stuck around under Levy for more than a couple of years unless they were rubbish yes-men like Hitchin and Lange.

Also, while every club has access to the top scouting tools and data, Brighton and Brentford literally created a bunch of those tools for their owners' betting operations, so they have access to a degree of scouting data no other clubs do, which definitely helps them.

Palace are a bit different - I think a lot of their top signings like Eze, Olise & Wharton were widely known (I'm just a shmuck on the internet and I'd heard of all 3 well before Palace signed them). They're just a nice stepping stone club that's happy to punt on Championship talent - players know they'll get regular minutes in the PL and then can set up a big move.

 

[triggerspurs]

Everything is easy in hindsight but anyone who wouldn't start richy is bonkers imo

 

[McCOYS]

The rule is stupid. You can basically foul as long as you do it before the ball comes in to play, nevermind that you've unfairly impeded an opponent.

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I agree, the rule is stupid but players have been grabbing, pushing, pulling, at corners as far back as I can remember, I don't recall any penalties awarded for it.

Regarding your point about the aggression continuing after the ball has been played, is it still a foul if it started when the ball was out of play? I don't think there is a rule to clarify that, so it's the referee and VAR's discretion, I assume.

According to the PGMOL they say the fouling had stopped before the ball was played, I suppose they mean the players continued to fall over but the agro that caused the fall was over when the ball was still out, It's not unusual for a referee to be late with his whistle and have to call play back because of an infringement.

I think the issue is the referee should have stopped the corner from being taken, sorted out the offences, talked to the players, even give the yellow card, then permit the corner to be taken. So the ref poorly managed the situation and didn't want to offer a penalty to our team because of his own error, and VAR PGMOL have backed him.

All those times in the past when the referee has stopped the corner and warned the players would probably have ended up with players continuing to grab and shove after the corner kick was taken.

The question perhaps should be why not let the players continue to foul during the corner and award a penalty each time?

I think it would need to be announced prior to a season starting if that's what they will ever do.

 

[Notabadsquad]

Good post. The Johnson deal was a good one for us , he's been turd for Palace.
Not replacing and / or using the money on Gallagher was the issue.
Just obvious , easy signings as they become available. Where's the planning ? The scouting ?
How can Brentford , Brighton , Bournemouth, Palace etc continually find these players for not much money but we pay double or treble for duds despite having a bigger budget not only for signings but wages and a bigger scouting network.

Click to shrink...

The Johnsom deal wasn't the right call because we did not replace his goals. Forget how he has been at Palace. That's an irrelevance.

You can't talk money for Trossard and Raya on the one hand and then talk good deals on the other. We lack goals do we not and Johnson would have been a provem goal threat.

I think our player recruitment looks worse because of our current predicament and managers who have simply failed to deliver. As I said earlier, next to nobody was complaining about our squad at the end of the summer window. Nobody, apart from maybe one or two posters predicted this relegation fight.

The injuries are simply incredible and the reasons probably quite varied.

 

[Timberwolf]

I agree, the rule is stupid but players have been grabbing, pushing, pulling, at corners as far back as I can remember, I don't recall any penalties awarded for it.

Regarding your point about the aggression continuing after the ball has been played, is it still a foul if it started when the ball was out of play? I don't think there is a rule to clarify that, so it's the referee and VAR's discretion, I assume.

According to the PGMOL they say the fouling had stopped before the ball was played, I suppose they mean the players continued to fall over but the agro that caused the fall was over when the ball was still out, It's not unusual for a referee to be late with his whistle and have to call play back because of an infringement.

I think the issue is the referee should have stopped the corner from being taken, sorted out the offences, talked to the players, even give the yellow card, then permit the corner to be taken. So the ref poorly managed the situation and didn't want to offer a penalty to our team because of his own error, and VAR PGMOL have backed him.

All those times in the past when the referee has stopped the corner and warned the players would probably have ended up with players continuing to grab and shove after the corner kick was taken.

The question perhaps should be why not let the players continue to foul during the corner and award a penalty each time?

I think it would need to be announced prior to a season starting if that's what they will ever do.

Click to shrink...

It's got markedly worse in the past 2-3 years. Fouls used to be given for merely touching the keeper and there was far, far less grabbing and grappling.

Think someone put up a video of a corner from the 2000s or the 2010s recently and it was like a different sport.

 

[dudu]

Cool. Good that there is some agreement there.

I've never stated that it's useless, only that it's flawed and, as such, is not reliable in the context of this discussion.

Note that this has never been my premise. Whilst I may have used us in relation to clubs like Woolwich and Liverpool, it was merely a comparison to highlight the incongruity. My actual premise has been made abundantly clear.

Again, not the argument I'm making.

And this is the crux of it. I've made this point in relation to statistical analysis like xG, xA etc. on its own, the data only tells part of the story. You need to look at it in context alongside what you see yourself. Alone, data is misleading, but viewed in conjunction with each other then a clearer picture is seen when viewed analytically.

It's not a jump though. This isn't an empassioned Spurs fan yelling 'woe is me,' I'm looking at the officiating across the entire PL and seeing a clear favouritism towards certain clubs. You get just enough go your way, against perceived lesser sides, to make it 'appear' that there's consistency, but the reality is that they are weighted to maintain the status quo, with the biggest clubs enjoying that weighting more than the rest. We have decades of evidence to back this up.

That is not the point. Corruption doesn't have to be premeditated. If a referee, consciously or unconsciously, shows a bias towards a certain team, then their neutrality is corrupted. There's no Grey area here, it's a corruption of the standing they are supposed to have as completely neutral and, thereby, incorruptible. However, they're not neutral, as they are bankrolled by the very entity in who's best interests it is to maintain the status quo.
In essence, it is a conflict of interest. Were the PGMOL truly neutral, the PL business model would likely fail, or at least be diminished. They get hundreds of billions in revenue from the business model that has the biggest supported teams constantly successful and/or challenging for the majority honours. You think they'd jeopardise that by allowing the league to fall as it will?

Where is the flaw in the logic? Corruption is patently evident, you even admit yourself that the bigger teams get a greater weighting of favourable calls, you just dismiss it as 'unconscious bias' when, as I've explained above, this is a corruption of their neutrality.

You're whole argument is based on flawed data, which you've admitted yourself, but you're flat out refusing to see the regularity of it as being a conscious pattern.

Again I ask you, how come referees in the EL are able to officiate throughout a season, with maybe a handful of contentious decisions, when the PL, that has 3 refs and untold technology, manages to have a handful in virtually every game, and I'm not even counting the offside calls?

The difference here is that the EL is overseen by the FA, the broadcasting rights are negligible compared to the PL, and the fanbases for the majority of the clubs are relatively even and local. There's no jeopardy involved as there aren't billions of pounds in international broadcasting rights involved.

It's a logical conclusion based on ALL of the information we have access to.

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I guess we are talking about corruption in two different ways - you are saying the ref's neutrality is corrupted.

But that is a different argument from the one I am making and the thing I am pushing back on.

If the claim is “the Premier League/PGMOL are actively managing results to keep the biggest global clubs successful”, then I still think that needs a much stronger evidential base than examples of inconsistent decisions.

On the data point, I’m not saying the data gives the full picture. I’ve already accepted it doesn’t. But your evidence has the same problem in reverse. It is also selective. It is built from remembered examples, and fans are naturally much better at remembering the ones that confirm the pattern they already believe exists.

That doesn’t make your examples false. Some of them are probably completely fair. But examples are not the same thing as proving a system-wide design. Your 'evidence' is linking refeeres bias to managing an outcome for the FA and drawing a line to 'they need to maintain the status quo' - you have no evdience to show that is a desired outcome and im not seeing much credence given to other factors - which people painstakingly go at lengths to show during the transfer season- that go towards the bigger teams being able to largely finish above the lesser teams anyway - money and player draw.

And I don’t agree that “big clubs get more favourable calls” automatically proves corruption. It can also prove status bias, referee fear, media pressure, crowd influence, reputational assumptions, or weak application of subjective rules. Those things are bad, but they are not the same as a coordinated commercial strategy.

Also, the Premier League product argument cuts both ways. Spurs are not Brentford. We are a major London club, with a huge stadium, a major international audience and huge commercial value to the league. If the PL’s only goal was to maximise global appeal, suppressing Spurs is not an obviously logical business strategy.

Would it not have made more sense to have bias heavily shown towards Spurs during Kane's tenure so we won something and the best English player of a generation remained playing in England?

You say corruption is patently evident, but I really don't think it is hard to show it is unconscious bias with no ill intent. I have countless examples of that too. The PL champions from last season have had a lot of decisions go against them this season for example.

Man U last season -

Chelsea every other season....

In fact, pre-VAR, with United's sheer dominance id be more inclined to view that as being much worse corruption-wise than anything i have seen during the VAR years.

Ultimately, I haven't seen you push back this hard against anyone else talking corruption based on a single video of just things that happen to Spurs or touches in the box to penalty given data - despite the clear and obvious flaws in it - perhaps because of your own bias towards agreeing with it - im not sure. Either way, I have seen absolutely zero evidence to corroborate a push from refs to influence outcomes to maintain the status quo.

 

[Bale'sGolfBat]

Would it not have made more sense to have bias heavily shown towards Spurs during Kane's tenure so we won something and the best English player of a generation remained playing in England?

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I’m pretty neutral in this discussion but one thing did strike me as I read this, if PGMOL were going to fix things then would the favourable story here not be for them to do all they can to get England’s best player of generation out of the Spurs and into one of the ‘big clubs’, like a Manchester team for example………… à la that ball root Gary Neville and all of the press around Kane needs to leave to win trophies………just a thought.

 

[manmountainbutters]

The Johnsom deal wasn't the right call because we did not replace his goals. Forget how he has been at Palace. That's an irrelevance.

You can't talk money for Trossard and Raya on the one hand and then talk good deals on the other. We lack goals do we not and Johnson would have been a provem goal threat.

I think our player recruitment looks worse because of our current predicament and managers who have simply failed to deliver. As I said earlier, next to nobody was complaining about our squad at the end of the summer window. Nobody, apart from maybe one or two posters predicted this relegation fight.

The injuries are simply incredible and the reasons probably quite varied.

Click to shrink...

Yes, it's Frank, Tudor and the failure to resolve the level of injuries that have done us. We all know that this squad, with a normalised level of injuries and RDZ would be at least mid-table.

 

[dudu]

I’m pretty neutral in this discussion but one thing did strike me as I read this, if PGMOL were going to fix things then would the favourable story here not be for them to do all they can to get England’s best player of generation out of the Spurs and into one of the ‘big clubs’, like a Manchester team for example………… à la that ball root Gary Neville and all of the press around Kane needs to leave to win trophies………just a thought.

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The media definitely loved doing this as it generated a tonne of profitable content for them

Ultimately he ended up in Germany which to me is a huge loss for the English game.

 

[Notabadsquad]

Yes, it's Frank, Tudor and the failure to resolve the level of injuries that have done us. We all know that this squad, with a normalised level of injuries and RDZ would be at least mid-table.

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Very least mate.

Pretty much everything that could have gone wrong has gone wrong, and the indecisiveness re: Frank (a manager), which was bizarrely echoed by many on here would have taken many other sides through the trapdoor long before the final game of the season.

 

[Steed_Train]

The single biggest but very important difference that lot made compared to us when they were already doing well was signing Rice for that huge sum but they also got lucky with Raya and Odegaard,neither of whom was ridiculously expensive. They gambled, and won.

They have also benefited by the 2 big Spanish clubs not having the clout of before, which lured Bale from us and Modric. That's helped them massively much as the dimwits on here won't understand.

And then when we lost Kane followed by Son,having some time before lost the other game-changers - Alli and Eriksen, nobody in the club understood the risk it causes or how it turns you from feared to routine.

And then in the last 2 seasons,on top of all that our injuries have brought us here.

And I think it would be quite wrong to completely dismiss the reality that with better or more normal levels of injuries I think we would be at least 10 to 15 points better off, without exaggeration..

That won't be written in the history books of PL 2025/26.

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At what point do the volume and timescale of our injuries move from bad luck to negligence?

I have never seen anything like it!

 

[Notabadsquad]

At what point do the volume and timescale of our injuries move from bad luck to negligence?

I have never seen anything like it!

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No idea.

Whatever the reasons, I don't think any squad of comparable size and quality could or would have done much better than we have.

That's notwithstanding the other factors..

 

[HodHaz1]

View: https://x.com/footyinsider247/status/2057072596504482291

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Is this the same Keith Hackett, who referred our 1981 Cup final? His opinion about Delap is absolutley correct.

 

[HodHaz1]

The Johnsom deal wasn't the right call because we did not replace his goals. Forget how he has been at Palace. That's an irrelevance.

You can't talk money for Trossard and Raya on the one hand and then talk good deals on the other. We lack goals do we not and Johnson would have been a provem goal threat.

I think our player recruitment looks worse because of our current predicament and managers who have simply failed to deliver. As I said earlier, next to nobody was complaining about our squad at the end of the summer window. Nobody, apart from maybe one or two posters predicted this relegation fight.

The injuries are simply incredible and the reasons probably quite varied.

Click to shrink...

The Johnson deal was the right call, one of the best decisions Frank made during his time here. He became an irrelevance for us before he went to Palace. Never good enough to step up and own games, despite all the injuries we had. Demoting him to the bench is where his sub standard performances belonged. We're lucky Palace stepped in to take him off our hands, now they're fans are witnessing how much of an inept footballer he is.

 

[Notabadsquad]

The Johnson deal was the right call, one of the best decisions Frank made during his time here. He became an irrelevance for us before he went to Palace. Never good enough to step up and own games, despite all the injuries we had. Demoting him to the bench is where his sub standard performances belonged. We're lucky Palace stepped in to take him off our hands, now they're fans are witnessing how much of an inept footballer he is.

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Better to lose a player who could score goals. Yep, it's served us really well.

And with respect, once you cite Frank and use best decisions in the same sentence, credibility is difficult to acknowledge.

 

[McCOYS]

It's got markedly worse in the past 2-3 years. Fouls used to be given for merely touching the keeper and there was far, far less grabbing and grappling.

Think someone put up a video of a corner from the 2000s or the 2010s recently and it was like a different sport.

Click to shrink...

Maybe the referees should start blowing the whistle for corner kicks to be taken, and if the agro happens after that then it should be judged as fouls as if it's occurring in open play. I suppose the Premier League would have to announce that for the start of a season. If there's agro before the corner kick is taken the referee should be booking players with a yellow card before he blows his whistle for the corner kick to be taken.

It all seems a bit childish and over controlled but as it is the corner kick situation is getting out of hand, gooners so often yanking players of their feet, they might be the worst culprits in the PL but lots of teams also foul to a lesser degree.

 

[HodHaz1]

Better to lose a player who could score goals. Yep, it's served us really well.

And with respect, once you cite Frank and use best decisions in the same sentence, credibility is difficult to acknowledge.

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The credibility of Frank's decision and my opinion is vindicated by Johnson's continued incompetence south of the river.

 

[Notabadsquad]

The credibility of Frank's decision and my opinion is vindicated by Johnson's continued incompetence south of the river.

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It's an irrelevance. How Johnson is doing at Palace is of no significance to my point.

 

[walter]

The credibility of Frank's decision and my opinion is vindicated by Johnson's continued incompetence south of the river.

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He's been turd for Wales too.

So Iraola, and Bellamy haven't been able to get a performance out of him, yet that fat Aussie fraud could.

Strange that.