Management Ange Postecoglou

[HampshireSpur]

What's annoying me is that some posters seem incapable of understanding that things aren't black and white. There isn't 100% blame on Ange and there isn't 100% blame on the players. Both have to share culpability for some of the results and performances we've had.

But there is something fundamentally wrong with the mentality of some/a lot of the players we end up having, and I don't know why that is. But it's fucking annoying.

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Agree, it isn't black and white, but, finally, the buck stops with the board/ownership. They are the commonality in all of this.

Fundamentally the manager is a chess piece nowadays, the days of Wenger and SAF are long gone. Then it's players, and they are expendable too. As Levy/ENIC aren't going anywhere soon, that only leaves us to work on our recruitment and management to be as good as it can under our constraints.

Whether we're close to achieving either of those things is a very open question.

 

[Steed_Train]

People talking the "players mentality since before Ange took over" but lets look at facts.

Six of our starting 11 are players that were signed by Ange (including Udogie who was signed before but was'nt at the club).

The rest of the squad consists of Forster, Spence, Davies, Dragusin, Bergvall,Gray, Bentancur, Sarr,Werner, Richarlison, Odobert.


What these Ange apologists/excuse makers are trying to do is deflect attention onto historical issues such as Levy/Enic and also about the previous issues with the mentality of players but lets look at the facts.

50% of the squad is players signed for and by Ange Postecoglu. In 1 and a half years at the club he has been given the luxury of a 50% overhaul of the squad which i do not think any manager in world football has been allowed to this degree and this quickly.

Since Ange has taken charge we have spent approximately £320m with around £270m being NET SPEND. This is the highest in the whole league (maybe the whole world???)


so he has brought in half the squad (not even including players that have been loaned out) and he is still not able to change the mentality of the squad? what??

So we have spent the most money in the whole league NET (maybe even world) since hes been here and it's still Levy/Enics fault? what??




Make it make sense. Previously Levy/Enic were absolutely at fault when they clearly refused to back managers with the necessary signings needed but just because they were previously at fault the Ange apologists try to continue to use this as some sort of reason or justification for poor performances/results as a way of deflecting attention.

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I’m still skeptical about how much autonomy any of our managers have on signings.

Find it hard to believe they aren’t all filtered by the club/Levy

 

[The Absolute GOAT]

Agree, it isn't black and white, but, finally, the buck stops with the board/ownership. They are the commonality in all of this.

Fundamentally the manager is a chess piece nowadays, the days of Wenger and SAF are long gone. Then it's players, and they are expendable too. As Levy/ENIC aren't going anywhere soon, that only leaves us to work on our recruitment and management to be as good as it can under our constraints.

Whether we're close to achieving either of those things is a very open question.

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I don't disagree with any of that.

All I'm saying is that we've gone through plenty of managers including serial winners Conte and Mourinho. Even they couldn't get a tune out of us trophy-wise.

So it just feels like whomever we bring in next, we're far more likely to ruin them than they are likely to win us trophies. I'm NOT saying that's a reason to keep Ange. I'm just saying it feels inevitable that, until ENIC fuck off, we'll be having these same discussions in 6 / 12 / 18 / 24 months time.

I don't think that makes me an Ange-apologist that the hard of thinking seem to be trying to make out. If it's 'time for a change' then it's time for a change. But I don't expect ANY changes to work in terms of winning trophies.

 

[kingdawson]

I note you've taken a quote from one of my posts to deliberately provoke / troll.

I'm going to leave you with this little tidbit before I permanently block you, you attention-seeking mug.

I am NOT an Ange apologist/excuse maker. Unlike you, I'm speaking facts.

The players mentality at our club has been shit for years, no matter the manager. We've had weak individual after weak individual after weak individual and that is PART of the reason we've won fuck all. Note, I said PART.

We're never winning anything as long as ENIC are at the helm. Not sure what you don't comprehend about that.

But you ever call me an Ange or Enic apologist again, and you won't like the consequences. Why don't you stick to pretending you work for spurs and that you have 'insider knowledge', Hercule - go get that attention you so desperately crave.

Reply if you like but I have more respect for the dog shit I tread on the other day than I do for you or your posts.

You're done with me, and you're done on here. Consider this a virtual spanking.

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Mods can you get this drunk/cyber gangster out of here now please. He's resorted to personal abuse at two different posters just today and now he's posting "mic drop gifs" for his own damn posts, a new low.

EDIT : He's since decided to edit "Won't like the consequences"....that's a threat right?

 

[Sir Archibald Crooks]

There is no doubt the underlying causes are ENICs. Seriously how can it be any other way, all these managers and Directors of football just turn to shite when they rock up with us. Postecoglou was another manager let down in the summer, we needed 4 first team players and got 1. But thats just like every other manager we've had in 20 years.

But that doesnt mean you should be sat 10th, losing to Palace and Ipswich, 10 defeats in 18, never keeping clean sheets, no players improving under your watch. Thats all about poor management and coaching.

Really dont think its an either or. Both are an issue. Someone summed it up nicely yesterday in that the only thing worse than dreadful owners and a decent manager is dreadful owners and a poor manager. I think plenty of coaches can come in and do a better job than we've seen over the last 10 or 12 months. They'll just be a limit on what they can achieve because of Levy.

 

[Kosher Kid]

I'm standing up clapping my hands shouting fight,fight,fight.

Anyone else?

 

[Leoyiddo]

After 23.5 years of mostly passive acceptance do you think ENIC & Levy will take us seriously?

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Maybe if we start rioting like the French

 

[The Absolute GOAT]

I think plenty of coaches can come in and do a better job than we've seen over the last 10 or 12 months. They'll just be a limit on what they can achieve because of Levy.

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And that's a very important point, because if we're not winning trophies or attempting to win trophies then fundamentally, we're fucked.

Do you really see any coach coming in and winning us anything whilst Levy/Enic are here? I don't.

Sure, get rid of Ange if things don't improve rapidly results-wise, I'm not arguing against that at all. But I feel so utterly low about our shithouse club at the moment, that I simply don't see us winning trophies with anyone. We couldn't do it with Conte and we couldn't do it with Mourinho.

Who comes in (and wants to) and wins us trophies whilst that bald eggy cunt is in charge?

#depressed

 

[Matt1882]

People talking the "players mentality since before Ange took over" but lets look at facts.

Six of our starting 11 are players that were signed by Ange (including Udogie who was signed before but was'nt at the club).

The rest of the squad consists of Forster, Spence, Davies, Dragusin, Bergvall,Gray, Bentancur, Sarr,Werner, Richarlison, Odobert.


What these Ange apologists/excuse makers are trying to do is deflect attention onto historical issues such as Levy/Enic and also about the previous issues with the mentality of players but lets look at the facts.

50% of the squad is players signed for and by Ange Postecoglu. In 1 and a half years at the club he has been given the luxury of a 50% overhaul of the squad which i do not think any manager in world football has been allowed to this degree and this quickly.

Since Ange has taken charge we have spent approximately £320m with around £270m being NET SPEND. This is the highest in the whole league (maybe the whole world???)


so he has brought in half the squad (not even including players that have been loaned out) and he is still not able to change the mentality of the squad? what??

So we have spent the most money in the whole league NET (maybe even world) since hes been here and it's still Levy/Enics fault? what??




Make it make sense. Previously Levy/Enic were absolutely at fault when they clearly refused to back managers with the necessary signings needed but just because they were previously at fault the Ange apologists try to continue to use this as some sort of reason or justification for poor performances/results as a way of deflecting attention.

Click to shrink...

Also consider how good most of these players were in the early days of Postecoglou compared to now.
It's like the talent is being coached clean out of them.

 

[HampshireSpur]

I don't disagree with any of that.

All I'm saying is that we've gone through plenty of managers including serial winners Conte and Mourinho. Even they couldn't get a tune out of us trophy-wise.

So it just feels like whomever we bring in next, we're far more likely to ruin them than they are likely to win us trophies. I'm NOT saying that's a reason to keep Ange. I'm just saying it feels inevitable that, until ENIC fuck off, we'll be having these same discussions in 6 / 12 / 18 / 24 months time.

I don't think that makes me an Ange-apologist that the hard of thinking seem to be trying to make out. If it's 'time for a change' then it's time for a change. But I don't expect ANY changes to work in terms of winning trophies.

Click to shrink...

I agree with much of this, which is why I'm not yet - quite - Ange out.

I do have a feeling though he's just not going to be pragmatic enough to work well with what he will have at his disposal. I think a PL proven manager who can work within a clearly defined structure (Esp wages) will suit us better.

I do think this is a discussion to have at the end of the season though, unless we nosedive. Two full seasons is more than enough time to cast judgment and I feel we're looking about equal parts good and bad at the moment. As I've written many times I have no idea what to expect game to game.

 

[Kosher Kid]

Also consider how good most of these players were in the early days of Postecoglou compared to now.
It's like the talent is being coached clean out of them.

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I disagree.

Bissouma has played his best football under Ange. So has Sarr. Kulu is improving since playing in midfield and VDV has been brilliant. Brennan has improved massively, in respect of goals, since Soalnke arrived; who has also been decent.

There is still inconsistancy in the team but in general it is the senior players, such as Son and Romero who are performing below what you would normally expect.

I accept that the reason for this could have something to do with Levy wanting to remove big wage earners for political reasons but blaming Ange for it makes little sense.

 

[Matt1882]

I disagree.

Bissouma has played his best football under Ange. So has Sarr. Kulu is improving since playing in midfield and VDV has been brilliant. Brennan has improved massively, in respect of goals, since Soalnke arrived; who has also been decent.

There is still inconsistancy in the team but in general it is the senior players, such as Son and Romero who are performing below what you would normally expect.

I accept that the reason for this could have something to do with Levy wanting to remove big wage earners for political reasons but blaming Ange for it makes little sense.

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Bissouma played his best football early last season though. He became very inconsistent after those 2 red cards.
Sarr can blow hot and cold and seems to be in and out of the team.
Kulu was actually dismal for much of last season. We could all see he was awful on the right wing. He's only bucked up since being given a more central role. Let's see if he can maintain it.
Johnson is a funny one. Since day 1 he's looked good for a goal but rarely has a good game.
Solanke hasn't been here long enough yet to show whether his game is going up, down or the same.
I worry about VDV as his role to sprint after all the breakaway attacks is what is leading him to pull his hamstrings so often.

 

[kingdawson]

I disagree.

Bissouma has played his best football under Ange. So has Sarr. Kulu is improving since playing in midfield and VDV has been brilliant. Brennan has improved massively, in respect of goals, since Soalnke arrived; who has also been decent.

There is still inconsistancy in the team but in general it is the senior players, such as Son and Romero who are performing below what you would normally expect.

I accept that the reason for this could have something to do with Levy wanting to remove big wage earners for political reasons but blaming Ange for it makes little sense.

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Brennan has improved in comparison to when? His form this season is pretty much an exact replication of his form at Forest (doesn't get involved much in general play but is able to get himself in dangerous positions and contributes in terms of goals). I actually think his performance level was better last season where he managed to get involved in general play more and grabbed 10 or so assists.

Kulu is playing pretty well this season and yes better then last season but not better then his half season with Conte.

Bissouma playing well but more consistent when at Brighton.

Since last season:
Romero, Porro, Udogie, Son, Maddison, Johnson have regressed in terms of general play. You can even include Vicario in terms of regression.

VDV and Bissouma on par.

Sarr and Kulu have improved but Ange has only now started to have faith in Sarr. Previously he preferred changing his whole system and playing with a single pivot rather then starting him.

 

[Perryman]

People talking the "players mentality since before Ange took over" but lets look at facts.

Six of our starting 11 are players that were signed by Ange (including Udogie who was signed before but was'nt at the club).

The rest of the squad consists of Forster, Spence, Davies, Dragusin, Bergvall,Gray, Bentancur, Sarr,Werner, Richarlison, Odobert.


What these Ange apologists/excuse makers are trying to do is deflect attention onto historical issues such as Levy/Enic and also about the previous issues with the mentality of players but lets look at the facts.

50% of the squad is players signed for and by Ange Postecoglu. In 1 and a half years at the club he has been given the luxury of a 50% overhaul of the squad which i do not think any manager in world football has been allowed to this degree and this quickly.

Since Ange has taken charge we have spent approximately £320m with around £270m being NET SPEND. This is the highest in the whole league (maybe the whole world???)


so he has brought in half the squad (not even including players that have been loaned out) and he is still not able to change the mentality of the squad? what??

So we have spent the most money in the whole league NET (maybe even world) since hes been here and it's still Levy/Enics fault? what??




Make it make sense. Previously Levy/Enic were absolutely at fault when they clearly refused to back managers with the necessary signings needed but just because they were previously at fault the Ange apologists try to continue to use this as some sort of reason or justification for poor performances/results as a way of deflecting attention.

Click to shrink...

How did Ange sign Udogie? Last 30 yrs we only win a trophy when we are crap. Finishing 10 or 11th with 46pts or so. The target is mid table mediocrity . The way we are going I think we will achieve it.

 

[Kosher Kid]

Bissouma played his best football early last season though. He became very inconsistent after those 2 red cards.
Sarr can blow hot and cold and seems to be in and out of the team.
Kulu was actually dismal for much of last season. We could all see he was awful on the right wing. He's only bucked up since being given a more central role. Let's see if he can maintain it.
Johnson is a funny one. Since day 1 he's looked good for a goal but rarely has a good game.
Solanke hasn't been here long enough yet to show whether his game is going up, down or the same.
I worry about VDV as his role to sprint after all the breakaway attacks is what is leading him to pull his hamstrings so often.

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Ange has had to drop Bissouma, Bentancur, Sarr, Maddison and Kulu at different times for inconsistency or just to rotate.

Kulu did very well last season, in a cetral role, while Maddison was injured. I think Ange kept Kulu up his sleeve in a central role for this season. Maddison was not the same when he came back into the team, after injury, at the back end of last season. When Ange played both Maddison and Kulu together in midfield it was Kulu who stood out. Despite this Maddison has more Premier League goals and assists than Kulu this season. Maddison off the bench is working.

It's the defending.

Vicario and Porro's weakness along with Romero's errors and casual indifference are the main problems Ange has on the pitch.

I feel very strongly about the goalkeeping position. Forster cannot play out with his feet so is not an adequate number 2 goalkeeper for Ange. Vicario has to play in all big games and his shortcomings with crosses into the box cannot be ignored.

We need a better 1st choice goalkeeper and Vicario as back up in my opinion. A decision needs to be made about Romero too.

 

[Matt1882]

Ange has had to drop Bissouma, Bentancur, Sarr, Maddison and Kulu at different times for inconsistency or just to rotate.

Kulu did very well last season, in a cetral role, while Maddison was injured. I think Ange kept Kulu up his sleeve in a central role for this season. Maddison was not the same when he came back into the team, after injury, at the back end of last season. When Ange played both Maddison and Kulu together in midfield it was Kulu who stood out. Despite this Maddison has more Premier League goals and assists than Kulu this season. Maddison off the bench is working.

It's the defending.

Vicario and Porro's weakness along with Romero's errors and casual indifference are the main problems Ange has on the pitch.

I feel very strongly about the goalkeeping position. Forster cannot play out with his feet so is not an adequate number 2 goalkeeper for Ange. Vicario has to play in all big games and his shortcomings with crosses into the box cannot be ignored.

We need a better 1st choice goalkeeper and Vicario as back up in my opinion. A decision needs to be made about Romero too.

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I'd bet my arse Romero looks world class when he leaves, probably for a bigger club than us.
He just looks disinterested at Spurs. Whether a new coach could turn that around I don't know.
Porro too.

 

[Kosher Kid]

Brennan has improved in comparison to when?

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Brennan has scored 4 Premier League goals in 11 appearances this season. His goals to games this season is acceptable. It wasn't last season. That represents improvement.

Kulu is playing pretty well this season and yes better then last season but not better then his half season with Conte.

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Kulu was new to the Premier League in his half season with Conte. It is fair to say he was very good during that period. However; he was also an unknown quantity to many opposing teams. Last season he was continually prevented from cutting in off the right wing by players who knew what to expect. Ange has moved Kulu into a deeper role and he has improved. The allegation against Ange that I responded to was that he has failed to improve any players.

Bissouma playing well but more consistent when at Brighton.

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I don't care what Bissouma did for Brighton. Conte didn't pick him very often and when he did; Bissouma was poor.

Ange has rotated Bissouma and Bissouma has improved his Spurs form and recently looks a little more consistent and reliable. Again this represents an improvement in my opinion.

 

[Sir Archibald Crooks]

I'd bet my arse Romero looks world class when he leaves, probably for a bigger club than us.
He just looks disinterested at Spurs. Whether a new coach could turn that around I don't know.
Porro too.

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Dragusin, Serie A defender of the year, wanted by Bayern Munich, looked great at the Euros, now looks like the bastard offspring of Ramon Vega and Stuart Nethercott.

 

[Kosher Kid]

I'd bet my arse Romero looks world class when he leaves, probably for a bigger club than us.
He just looks disinterested at Spurs. Whether a new coach could turn that around I don't know.
Porro too.

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I only care what Romero does for Spurs and he has never looked world class throughout his time with Spurs, in my opinion.

He has looked unprofessional at times and still lacks the ability to communicate with, inspire or lead the team. Romero is a very poor choice as captain or for leadership of any capacity in my opinion.

Kicking people when you are pissed off and sulking are not the actions of a world class footballer.

Fuck Romero if he doesn't want to play for Spurs.

That should be the message loud and clear.

 

[Matt1882]

Dragusin, Serie A defender of the year, wanted by Bayern Munich, looked great at the Euros, now looks like the bastard offspring of Ramon Vega and Stuart Nethercott.

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Harsh on Vega, that.

I lost count of how many times Dragusin tried to clear the ball on Sunday, only to slice it straight up in the air and it come back down to an Ipswich player.

And our fans demanded Romero was dropped for that donkey a few weeks ago.