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Management Ange Postecoglou

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ginola92 said:
You say Newcastle “crashed and burned” they came 7th just 6 points behind us a team who played like 41 games in total last season …

I don’t think anyone would have massive problems with ange if we were around 7-9th dealing with injuries and if our form hadn’t been bang on Lower mid table for over a year now.

Also at what point are you guys going to stop using injuries as an excuse. We’ve been in an “injury crisis” since Chelsea in November 23 apparently, are we going to just continue giving him a pass indefinitely. A manager that needs his full first 11 to get results just isnt very good. Modern football requires adaptability and finding solutions to problems with heavy schedules, wether that be through training methods or tactical adjustments, ange has proven he’s not capable of consistently getting results at this level.
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Until the injury crisis is over and we see how he gets on with his players back! I know we'll always have injuries but a more managable scenario where we are missing 3 or 4 players instead of 10+ would be a fair assessment.

"A manager that needs his full first 11 to get results just isnt very good.". I completely agree on this but if he was only missing 2 or 3 players then no excuses but to be missing 10+ is insane. No manager can get regular results if they are missing 10+ players and have a game every 3 days. He could have done better but not much better!

Also on the Newcastle example. I wouldn't be surprised if we still finish 9th or 10th if we get 5 or 6 players back soon. Newcastle were out of Europe before christmas so could finish the league strong once they got some players back. We could do the same but hopefully keep our Europa run going too
 
Richard Arlison said:
Not enough for me to just say more sprints = more injuries. If you don't press then you end up spending more time out of possession and run more KMs chasing the ball.

The question is not about how many sprints IMO, it's about why the player's bodies haven't adjusted to running more sprints and more importantly why haven't we been able to keep the ball as much and control games more so we don't have to press as much.
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Yeah, it’s complex for sure. And bottom line, even if it’s categorically proven that it’s Ange’s Methods contributing to the injury crisis, you still have to decide whether you think it’s a price worth paying (and you just try to recruit accordingly) because you want to watch aggressive, high energy football, and/or you hope Ange learns to adjust a little (like Klopp did) or you don’t.

It’s also interesting that Brighton and Bournemouth are also suffering high injuries, as these are also teams applying differing but aggressive high energy methods.
 
Don Pedro said:
lol this sums up the thread. Ignore all context and assume everything is black or white.

14th in the league? Sack the manager. 10 injured players for 3 months? Who cares
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Context? The bad form didnt start in December. It started last February/March. 12 months ago almost to the day we lost at home to Wolves 2-1 and despite winning the next 2 its been dreadful ever since.

We had a fully fit squad for around 25 of our last 38 league games and yet we've lost 20 of them, getting a mighty 46 pts in the process. Thats worse than pretty much any Tottenham manager in living memory. Its clear the more time he has had the worse we have got.
 
John Thomas said:
He doesn't criticise the owners like Conte, Jose and Poch etc.... So he should be safe for a while.
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The journalists will get bored that he hasn’t been sacked yet and will finally start goading him into saying things about the owners. Only then will he really get his marching orders. It is pretty quiet in the Premier League at the moment so their editors will be desperate. The stories and Ange getting sacked is quite a big one. They will be under pressure to make him say something.
 
Who said:
exactly. It is black and white. The injured players.. you can see it how you like. I know what I see and I don't have to like it.
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Thats fine mate. Horses for courses and some days after defeats I'm emotional and I just want to rip it all up and start again.

But my theory is we can't judge where we are at until this insane period is over and we are back to near enough a full squad!
 
SpursDNA said:
How many are muscle injuries because of the way we play? - Because players have to sprint back 60 yard constantly - The injuries are a result of Ange’s playing style …

We don’t have the squad depth to play Ange ball and never will under Levy. He’s not a good fit for us.

See below from a member of the medical team at Celtic under Ange - We are not the Celtic of the EPL.

www.bbc.com

Ange Postecoglou: Is Tottenham manager's style causing Spurs injury crisis? - BBC Sport

Sports scientist Anton McElhone has worked closely with Ange Postecoglou at Celtic and speaks to BBC Sport about his methods.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

Why are Spurs getting so many injuries?​

"At Celtic after six months Postecoglou could rotate the front five at 65 or 65 minutes to keep the freshness for the 60-game season," reflected McElhone.

"At Tottenham he's probably found that a lot more difficult because I don't think the strength in depth is the same as other Premier League clubs like Manchester City and Chelsea.

"Look at the evolution at Celtic under
Postecoglou, we had a three-month period of sustaining injuries every week, mostly hamstring injuries.”

"As the players adapted to the demands of the system, the game fluctuation changed rather than that constant 'basketball' up and down the pitch, the team was able to control one half of the pitch more. So that stopped the centre-backs having to run in behind as often.
"As the game model and philosophy settled, that reduced injuries.

"At the moment, that is the problem at Tottenham. He has not got the squad.
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Ange is simply not going to move away from his philosophy of attacking football. Players will eventually come back and with the team now only competing in league games and Europa come end of February, injuries will no longer be an excuse and wins must be demanded of him.
 
dudu said:
Meh, one game later we were up in 6th, 3 points off 3rd - regardless of who we lost too.
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Your talking absolute nonsense.... Dropping points to the worst teams in the league as frequent as we have is horrendous from top to bottom.

Losing to Ipswich, Everton, palace, Leicester then dropping points more points to wolves and Leicester alone is 16 points.....guess where we would be if we had these 16 points.......4th.

Half of these games we had next to fully squads....you don't get these easy points dropped back it's not rocket science
 
Who said:
why do you care about this guy so much? It cannot be the results or dare I say it ..his personality?
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I don't particularly care for him. Just don't see the point in sacking him mid season. Happy to support him until the Summer and if things don't improve when players comeback then he's gone in May and we can target Iraola/Frank.

If we sack him now then it achieves nothing. Currently missing 10 players so no new manager gets a bounce! Iraola/Frank won't be available until the Summer so we probably end up having Mason in charge for 3 months.. Is that what you want? I'm more than happy to let Ange ride this our and we make drastic changes in the Summer if needed.
 
HampshireSpur said:
The nature of the game is that it's a results-based industry. Any talk of 'projects', 'building' (etc.,) needs to deal with the reality, which is results. Lose too many games and you get sacked.
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It’s just bollocks spouted by chairmen and owners who don’t want to spend big money on flash signings but only buy younger players on lower wages. So they say it’s a 3 or 5 year project. Man U are saying it now with Amorim, we’ve been in a project for 25 years! It’s bullshit. Were we a project in the 60/70/80/90s, no, we were just a football club that lived season by season and got on with it. Everyone else did the same and did pretty much fine.
 
Don Pedro said:
Thats fine mate. Horses for courses and some days after defeats I'm emotional and I just want to rip it all up and start again.

But my theory is we can't judge where we are at until this insane period is over and we are back to near enough a full squad!
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Ok, you care about the club and have an opinion. Nothing personal. But others see things I don't. I think we have a good squad including the supposed second choice players. I think a different approach would see results. We will know soon enough.
 
Sir Archibald Crooks said:
Fair enough. Given what they each took on and subsequent backing i think Postecoglou is worse. Gross got 36 pts in his 26 league games 1.38 ppg. Ange over his last 26 league games has 30 pts 1.15 ppg.

All his stats are heavily weighted by that first 10 league games and some fairly easy Europa games if you're counting cups.
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Also I’m sure gross didn’t get £400M spent on players in 18 months. Also I bet he didn’t get his tube ticket paid for either😀
 
Don Pedro said:
Until the injury crisis is over and we see how he gets on with his players back! I know we'll always have injuries but a more managable scenario where we are missing 3 or 4 players instead of 10+ would be a fair assessment.

"A manager that needs his full first 11 to get results just isnt very good.". I completely agree on this but if he was only missing 2 or 3 players then no excuses but to be missing 10+ is insane. No manager can get regular results if they are missing 10+ players and have a game every 3 days. He could have done better but not much better!

Also on the Newcastle example. I wouldn't be surprised if we still finish 9th or 10th if we get 5 or 6 players back soon. Newcastle were out of Europe before christmas so could finish the league strong once they got some players back. We could do the same but hopefully keep our Europa run going too
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The team was playing shit before the injuries. Maddison poor, Romero poor, Udogie poor, Bissouma poor etc etc ..
 
Don Pedro said:
Until the injury crisis is over and we see how he gets on with his players back! I know we'll always have injuries but a more managable scenario where we are missing 3 or 4 players instead of 10+ would be a fair assessment.

"A manager that needs his full first 11 to get results just isnt very good.". I completely agree on this but if he was only missing 2 or 3 players then no excuses but to be missing 10+ is insane. No manager can get regular results if they are missing 10+ players and have a game every 3 days. He could have done better but not much better!

Also on the Newcastle example. I wouldn't be surprised if we still finish 9th or 10th if we get 5 or 6 players back soon. Newcastle were out of Europe before christmas so could finish the league strong once they got some players back. We could do the same but hopefully keep our Europa run going too
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The problem with the “let’s wait to get his players back” answer is that this has been said since November 23. I think a lot have forgotten that our form went to absolute shit after a few injuries last year and the narrative was we can’t critique these results because of injuries.

We can’t keep this endless loop of waiting for players to return only for another crop to get injured and another excuse to form. How long does he live on those first 10 games from last season ? It’s more likely than not we’re going to continue having these injury problems under him. So then what, we just keep waiting for players hoping we find the form of august - November 23. It’s a very small sample size of results at this level to gamble on.
 
The way I see it, in deciding whether to sack a manager there are two types of error you can make. Call them Type I and Type II in the usual fashion.

Type I, also known as false positive, occurs when you make an unwarranted sacking. You decide to pull the trigger on a guy who would have accomplished great things here if not for the sack, or will accomplish great things in his next destination. The downside of Type I error is the possibility of missing out on a great manager in the making. Seems quite straightforward so I'm not elaborating further.

Type II, also known as false negative, occurs when you don't sack a manager that should already have been sacked some time ago. The downside of Type II is the damage you have to endure by sticking with an unsuccessful manager. Financial losses, reputational hits, and similar stuff all belong here. This also seems straightforward.

Now, how do the downsides of these respective errors compare in the case of Ange?

What about the possible downsides of Type I, a.k.a sacking him? How big is, or should be, the fear of missing out? What are the chances of sacking him and then him turning out to be the one that got away for example? He's 60, even Celtic was a big jump in his career let alone Tottenham, and he has already spent enough time here for us to get a sound idea of who he is. Sorry, but nothing tells me that we would regret sacking him years later down the road. Even if his successor(s) turn(s) out to be not so great.

What about the possible downsides of Type II, a.k.a keeping him? We're already witnessing them. Injuries that have at least something to do with him is one. Financial loss and loss of prestige caused by missing out on Europe next season is another, whose repercussions will be felt more acutely during the summer transfer window. These downsides are quite concrete, and are already felt. Unless there's reason to believe that they're worth enduring for the greater gains in the future, there's no reason to keep enduring them. And I don't see what those gains would be under Ange.
 
Skippa18 said:
Your talking absolute nonsense.... Dropping points to the worst teams in the league as frequent as we have is horrendous from top to bottom.

Losing to Ipswich, Everton, palace, Leicester then dropping points more points to wolves and Leicester alone is 16 points.....guess where we would be if we had these 16 points.......4th.

Half of these games we had next to fully squads....you don't get these easy points dropped back it's not rocket science
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Calm down.

we were 3 points off 3rd after city - they are the facts.

Doesnt matter who we lost too. At that stage of the season 2nd, 3rd, 4th 5th all had the lowest points accumulated at that time in premier league history.

Ange has fucked us - we lost games early on we shouldn't have - doesnt change that things got markedly worse after than city game.
 
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bus-conductor said:
Yeah, it’s complex for sure. And bottom line, even if it’s categorically proven that it’s Ange’s Methods contributing to the injury crisis, you still have to decide whether you think it’s a price worth paying (and you just try to recruit accordingly) because you want to watch aggressive, high energy football, and/or you hope Ange learns to adjust a little (like Klopp did) or you don’t.

It’s also interesting that Brighton and Bournemouth are also suffering high injuries, as these are also teams applying differing but aggressive high energy methods.
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Right.

Levy said himself "we've got our Tottenham back" . Surely that didn't mean just Ange and it was more about intense, pressing, possession-based, attacking football?

If it did then they need to figure out a way to reduce injuries regardless of who the coach is.

IMO some of it also has to be about culture as well. If the players are used to a club culture of intensity and the sports science team have developed their workflows around intensity every week, it should slowly improve. The issue is the previous sports science guy left in the summer and before that he had been flip-flopping all over the shop from Poch, to Jose, to Nuno and Conte. This new team have been recruited to accommodate a specific type of football. It's possibly taking them some time to establish working baselines and ranges they can work within.
 
That he can fire managers for being 4th & in cup finals yet keep Ange tells you that we can’t get anyone in.
We’ve gone from “ the most entertaining team in the prem” regardless of results to a clueless , impotent mess . Teams that have played as many games as us with consistent lines ups aren’t struggling with fatigue, of course our squad isn’t at that level and we know why that is

Players are subject to knocks & niggles when you’re losing , when you’re winning you want to play .

I do have a degree of pity for Ange as I have for any manager who’s been at Spurs but his tactical naivety is for all to see but that the board “ sympathise with the situation “ “ is utter nonsense and flannel
 
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