Manager Ange Postecoglou

[Don Pedro]

why do you care about this guy so much? It cannot be the results or dare I say it ..his personality?

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I don't particularly care for him. Just don't see the point in sacking him mid season. Happy to support him until the Summer and if things don't improve when players comeback then he's gone in May and we can target Iraola/Frank.

If we sack him now then it achieves nothing. Currently missing 10 players so no new manager gets a bounce! Iraola/Frank won't be available until the Summer so we probably end up having Mason in charge for 3 months.. Is that what you want? I'm more than happy to let Ange ride this our and we make drastic changes in the Summer if needed.

 

[Brian Fantana]

The nature of the game is that it's a results-based industry. Any talk of 'projects', 'building' (etc.,) needs to deal with the reality, which is results. Lose too many games and you get sacked.

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It’s just bollocks spouted by chairmen and owners who don’t want to spend big money on flash signings but only buy younger players on lower wages. So they say it’s a 3 or 5 year project. Man U are saying it now with Amorim, we’ve been in a project for 25 years! It’s bullshit. Were we a project in the 60/70/80/90s, no, we were just a football club that lived season by season and got on with it. Everyone else did the same and did pretty much fine.

 

[Matt1882]

not true - before them we were 6th - 3 points off 3rd after beating City.

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We were 10th before we got those 3 points.
And it was MW 12, so not much we can take from this.

 

[Who]

Thats fine mate. Horses for courses and some days after defeats I'm emotional and I just want to rip it all up and start again.

But my theory is we can't judge where we are at until this insane period is over and we are back to near enough a full squad!

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Ok, you care about the club and have an opinion. Nothing personal. But others see things I don't. I think we have a good squad including the supposed second choice players. I think a different approach would see results. We will know soon enough.

 

[Maureen]

Fair enough. Given what they each took on and subsequent backing i think Postecoglou is worse. Gross got 36 pts in his 26 league games 1.38 ppg. Ange over his last 26 league games has 30 pts 1.15 ppg.

All his stats are heavily weighted by that first 10 league games and some fairly easy Europa games if you're counting cups.

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Also I’m sure gross didn’t get £400M spent on players in 18 months. Also I bet he didn’t get his tube ticket paid for either

 

[McCOYS]

Until the injury crisis is over and we see how he gets on with his players back! I know we'll always have injuries but a more managable scenario where we are missing 3 or 4 players instead of 10+ would be a fair assessment.

"A manager that needs his full first 11 to get results just isnt very good.". I completely agree on this but if he was only missing 2 or 3 players then no excuses but to be missing 10+ is insane. No manager can get regular results if they are missing 10+ players and have a game every 3 days. He could have done better but not much better!

Also on the Newcastle example. I wouldn't be surprised if we still finish 9th or 10th if we get 5 or 6 players back soon. Newcastle were out of Europe before christmas so could finish the league strong once they got some players back. We could do the same but hopefully keep our Europa run going too

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The team was playing shit before the injuries. Maddison poor, Romero poor, Udogie poor, Bissouma poor etc etc ..

 

[ginola92]

Until the injury crisis is over and we see how he gets on with his players back! I know we'll always have injuries but a more managable scenario where we are missing 3 or 4 players instead of 10+ would be a fair assessment.

"A manager that needs his full first 11 to get results just isnt very good.". I completely agree on this but if he was only missing 2 or 3 players then no excuses but to be missing 10+ is insane. No manager can get regular results if they are missing 10+ players and have a game every 3 days. He could have done better but not much better!

Also on the Newcastle example. I wouldn't be surprised if we still finish 9th or 10th if we get 5 or 6 players back soon. Newcastle were out of Europe before christmas so could finish the league strong once they got some players back. We could do the same but hopefully keep our Europa run going too

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The problem with the “let’s wait to get his players back” answer is that this has been said since November 23. I think a lot have forgotten that our form went to absolute shit after a few injuries last year and the narrative was we can’t critique these results because of injuries.

We can’t keep this endless loop of waiting for players to return only for another crop to get injured and another excuse to form. How long does he live on those first 10 games from last season ? It’s more likely than not we’re going to continue having these injury problems under him. So then what, we just keep waiting for players hoping we find the form of august - November 23. It’s a very small sample size of results at this level to gamble on.

 

[BJK]

The way I see it, in deciding whether to sack a manager there are two types of error you can make. Call them Type I and Type II in the usual fashion.

Type I, also known as false positive, occurs when you make an unwarranted sacking. You decide to pull the trigger on a guy who would have accomplished great things here if not for the sack, or will accomplish great things in his next destination. The downside of Type I error is the possibility of missing out on a great manager in the making. Seems quite straightforward so I'm not elaborating further.

Type II, also known as false negative, occurs when you don't sack a manager that should already have been sacked some time ago. The downside of Type II is the damage you have to endure by sticking with an unsuccessful manager. Financial losses, reputational hits, and similar stuff all belong here. This also seems straightforward.

Now, how do the downsides of these respective errors compare in the case of Ange?

What about the possible downsides of Type I, a.k.a sacking him? How big is, or should be, the fear of missing out? What are the chances of sacking him and then him turning out to be the one that got away for example? He's 60, even Celtic was a big jump in his career let alone Tottenham, and he has already spent enough time here for us to get a sound idea of who he is. Sorry, but nothing tells me that we would regret sacking him years later down the road. Even if his successor(s) turn(s) out to be not so great.

What about the possible downsides of Type II, a.k.a keeping him? We're already witnessing them. Injuries that have at least something to do with him is one. Financial loss and loss of prestige caused by missing out on Europe next season is another, whose repercussions will be felt more acutely during the summer transfer window. These downsides are quite concrete, and are already felt. Unless there's reason to believe that they're worth enduring for the greater gains in the future, there's no reason to keep enduring them. And I don't see what those gains would be under Ange.

 

[dudu]

Your talking absolute nonsense.... Dropping points to the worst teams in the league as frequent as we have is horrendous from top to bottom.

Losing to Ipswich, Everton, palace, Leicester then dropping points more points to wolves and Leicester alone is 16 points.....guess where we would be if we had these 16 points.......4th.

Half of these games we had next to fully squads....you don't get these easy points dropped back it's not rocket science

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Calm down.

we were 3 points off 3rd after city - they are the facts.

Doesnt matter who we lost too. At that stage of the season 2nd, 3rd, 4th 5th all had the lowest points accumulated at that time in premier league history.

Ange has fucked us - we lost games early on we shouldn't have - doesnt change that things got markedly worse after than city game.

 

[Richard Arlison]

Yeah, it’s complex for sure. And bottom line, even if it’s categorically proven that it’s Ange’s Methods contributing to the injury crisis, you still have to decide whether you think it’s a price worth paying (and you just try to recruit accordingly) because you want to watch aggressive, high energy football, and/or you hope Ange learns to adjust a little (like Klopp did) or you don’t.

It’s also interesting that Brighton and Bournemouth are also suffering high injuries, as these are also teams applying differing but aggressive high energy methods.

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Right.

Levy said himself "we've got our Tottenham back" . Surely that didn't mean just Ange and it was more about intense, pressing, possession-based, attacking football?

If it did then they need to figure out a way to reduce injuries regardless of who the coach is.

IMO some of it also has to be about culture as well. If the players are used to a club culture of intensity and the sports science team have developed their workflows around intensity every week, it should slowly improve. The issue is the previous sports science guy left in the summer and before that he had been flip-flopping all over the shop from Poch, to Jose, to Nuno and Conte. This new team have been recruited to accommodate a specific type of football. It's possibly taking them some time to establish working baselines and ranges they can work within.

 

[Furball man]

That he can fire managers for being 4th & in cup finals yet keep Ange tells you that we can’t get anyone in.
We’ve gone from “ the most entertaining team in the prem” regardless of results to a clueless , impotent mess . Teams that have played as many games as us with consistent lines ups aren’t struggling with fatigue, of course our squad isn’t at that level and we know why that is

Players are subject to knocks & niggles when you’re losing , when you’re winning you want to play .

I do have a degree of pity for Ange as I have for any manager who’s been at Spurs but his tactical naivety is for all to see but that the board “ sympathise with the situation “ “ is utter nonsense and flannel

 

[SpursDNA]

Levy said himself "we've got our Tottenham back" . Surely that didn't mean just Ange and it was more about intense, pressing, possession-based, attacking football?

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He meant ENIC got the planning approvals for the hotel. Timing was a coincidence

But seriously who knows … Levy doesn’t care about intense pressing, possession, etc … He cares about real estate development …

 

[CollyQC]

That he can fire managers for being 4th & in cup finals yet keep Ange tells you that we can’t get anyone in.

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100%
Levy's reputation will scare off any half decent/up and coming manager out there. He's always had that reputation but it has now been going on so long and he has fucked over many a good manager that any notions or promises of change from him are clearly bullshit and everyone knows it. He's dug himself a big hole and he can no longer escape it. Can't see us attracting top players and managers until he's gone. Everyone knows he promises everything and delivers nothing

 

[Dr Rocktopus]

100%
Levy's reputation will scare off any half decent/up and coming manager out there. He's always had that reputation but it has now been going on so long and he has fucked over many a good manager that any notions or promises of change from him are clearly bullshit and everyone knows it. He's dug himself a big hole and he can no longer escape it. Can't see us attracting top players and managers until he's gone. Everyone knows he promises everything and delivers nothing

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Exactly.

Levy's a busted flush. He probably thinks he's being clever but in reality he's damaging his 'product' and has become a toxic presence to anybody outside the club.

 

[Matt1882]

Yep just sack another manager because that will fix the issue.


People just ignore the injuries. 'Sack the manager, we lost against Ipswich, 14th on the ladder, blah blah blah'

Seemingly to many on here sacking the manager will bring all these players back onto the pitch.

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You're neither English nor a lifelong Spurs fan, are you?

 

[enfield1985]

The team was playing shit before the injuries. Maddison poor, Romero poor, Udogie poor, Bissouma poor etc etc ..

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But you can take snapshots before the 23rd November that prove anything that is the problem with our form this season. The Ange In crowd can take the early wins where we won by a big margin and spin it into a story where we were playing fantastic unbelievable football. When the actual state of play is that all the matches except Everton were a lot closer than people think.

 

[Don Pedro]

The problem with the “let’s wait to get his players back” answer is that this has been said since November 23. I think a lot have forgotten that our form went to absolute shit after a few injuries last year and the narrative was we can’t critique these results because of injuries.

We can’t keep this endless loop of waiting for players to return only for another crop to get injured and another excuse to form. How long does he live on those first 10 games from last season ? It’s more likely than not we’re going to continue having these injury problems under him. So then what, we just keep waiting for players hoping we find the form of august - November 23. It’s a very small sample size of results at this level to gamble on.

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I think he'll be replaced in the Summer as he's not getting enough out of the squad and our game management is poor hence why we are constantly picking up injuries. My issue is that I don't see any value in sacking him mid season and I'm quite confident that our form will pick up once we get most of our injured players back so I'm not worried about relegation or things getting worse. In fact I think they will almost certainly improve once players are back.

But realistically, if we finish mid table and don't win the Europa league then this season was a complete failure and a new manager will takeover in the Summer. I just think Iraola/Frank are the obvious choices and neither will be available until the Summer and I'm happy to allow Ange to ride out this wave rather then letting Mason finish out the season.

I'm not trying to defend Ange. He has disappointed me with his squad management and his in-game substitutions all season. But I do think some of the abuse he gets on here is a bit OTT given how bad the injury situation is. I don't think a new manager improves us dramatically overnight. I think once our players are back then we'll see a dramatic improvement regardless of who the manager is.

 

[manmountainbutters]

The only weird thing about this interpretation (with which I otherwise agree) is that I find this guy's PR shocking, the messaging is awful, right down to the ill-fitting suits and bizarre staring at the floor (what's all that about?) Could go on but I have work to do - sick of seeing a club I've thumped loads of time and money into still resembling amateur hour.

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Well put HampshireSpur. He's an odd guy. Really odd.

It's a very high reward job, and with that should go high risk. Not ... "fail and you're ok" .

 

[Matt1882]

You say Newcastle “crashed and burned” they came 7th just 6 points behind us a team who played like 41 games in total last season …

I don’t think anyone would have massive problems with ange if we were around 7-9th dealing with injuries and if our form hadn’t been bang on Lower mid table for over a year now.

Also at what point are you guys going to stop using injuries as an excuse. We’ve been in an “injury crisis” since Chelsea in November 23 apparently, are we going to just continue giving him a pass indefinitely. A manager that needs his full first 11 to get results just isnt very good. Modern football requires adaptability and finding solutions to problems with heavy schedules, wether that be through training methods or tactical adjustments, ange has proven he’s not capable of consistently getting results at this level.

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The simps just can't see the evidence, can they?

An injury ravaged Newcastle beat our best 11 4-0 last season, lets not forget.
Also, an injury ravaged Chelsea walked all over our first 11 2-0 at the bridge.
Heck, the starting 11 Vs Fulham in THAT twatting was Vicario, Porro, Romero, Dragusin, Udogie, Johnson, Maddison, Kulusevski & Son. We brought on GLC, Richarlison, Bentancur, PEH and Werner.
Tell me again how it's only because we're playing with bare bones at the moment?

 

[McCOYS]

But you can take snapshots before the 23rd November that prove anything that is the problem with our form this season. The Ange In crowd can take the early wins where we won by a big margin and spin it into a story where we were playing fantastic unbelievable football. When the actual state of play is that all the matches except Everton were a lot closer than people think.

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My memory says we were hanging around 13th in the PL before the injuries came about.