Manager Ange Postecoglou

[Kiro Kompiro]

Let's say for a second that is true

How does it in any way shape or form not make the guy a terrible manager?

He clearly still played to win, and did not.

We still finished 17th.

There were no Louis-van-Gaal-style teams chock full of debuts from academy players, like a Fergie style "i don't care about this result"

Like it or not, excuses or otherwise, the manager who started this season inherited a team that had won only 4 league games since christmas 2024, and had finished as low as you can finish without dropping down a league.

Click to shrink...

Again you're ignoring the context of a Europa Cup win. That can't be extricated from the league result (which TBF was worse than what he would have wanted, and is what ultimately and justifiably cost him his job).

In hindsight what could have happened after was one of two things. Give him the start of this season and sack him if it follows the same path, OR sack him and appoint someone with a similar ethos but more measured, less dogmatic and more controlled.

 

[Kiro Kompiro]

You said

"If it looked like we could get relegated than its reasonable to assume that a different approach would have been taken and with possibly different outcomes in the league"

The matter of absolute fact is that the outcomes would not have been different. It is a work of fiction that the teams were picked in a way that would have affected anything. As per my other points, we were losing games irrelevantly of any so-called European focus, and we were dropping points and conceding with VdV and Romero in the line up, with a pretty much full-strength squad.

If he would have had the same squad and same injuries this season, there's absolutely no evidence - based on what we'd seen for 2 years - that we'd be any better off, because all of the issues are just constant excuses for why he couldn't win a game.

If we want to play "if he had better players and no injuries we could have finished top 4" then we're effectively saying that people like Tim Sherwood, Redknapp, and Pochettino were better anyway

Click to shrink...

There is no matter of absolute fact. All you're doing is making hypothetical projections without being able to control another very important confounding factor: that being we were balls deep in winning the Europa cup.

And once again, finishing 17 th was unacceptable.

 

[Shadydan]

...whereas Postecoglou was a total mess. Flailing around tactically, when he eventually accepted that his beloved 'Angeball' had been see for the Emperor's Clothes that it actually was, training injuries into players, spending entire games looking at his bloody feet - then looking up, once in a blue moon, to abuse the fans.
To use your phrase...

Terrible manager tactically and terrible motivator.

Click to shrink...

Don't even know which bold is more laughable

 

[www]

I've just realised that the only way to stop this dead and decaying topic from constantly festering up to the surface of the quagmire is to put it on ignore.

Bye bye.

 

[McCOYS]

The *way* we played under Frank was inexcusable. It was timid, and worse, boring. That sent the message that he didn't rate the players. If that wasn't enough to get the message across to them, he made sure they knew it during his press conferences.

Terrible manager tactically and terrible motivator.

Click to shrink...

I agree but I also did not enjoy the majority of Postecoglou's second season. There were times when the players looked lost, and when a fair few came back from injury there wasn't much of or even any improvement,

I wish I could think of something different to post because I really don't want to argue about Postecoglou, I have nothing new to add. My recent posts haven't been about Postecoglou per se, rather about excuses that he's awarded regarding injuries.

To put it another way, just forget the names, Manager (1) is the best manager in the world, there's lots of injuries and the team ends up 17th. He's partly excused because of injuries. Manager (2) is the worst manager in the world, he has lots of injuries and ends up around 17th but he doesn't deserve the same excuse because he's a worse manager, and people will always find reason to display Manager (1)s injuries as worse.

 

[Kiro Kompiro]

I agree but I also did not enjoy the majority of Postecoglou's second season. There were times when he players looked lost, and when a fair few came back from injury there wasn't much of or even any improvement,

I wish I could think of something different to post because I really don't want to argue about Postecoglou, I have nothing new to add. My recent posts haven't been about Postecoglou per se, rather about excuses that he's awarded regarding injuries.

To put it another way, just forget the names, Manager (1) is the best manager in the world, there's lots of injuries and the team ends up 17th. He's partly excused because of injuries. Manager (2) is the worst manager in the world, he has lots of injuries and ends up around 17th but he doesn't deserve the same excuse because he's a worse manager, and people will always find reason to display Manager (1)s injuries as worse.

Click to shrink...

Your last point is fair. The difference IMV is that under Postecoglou there were moments of glory, under Frank I can't think of any. He was completely unsuited to us.

 

[Auscock]

I've just realised that the only way to stop this dead and decaying topic from constantly festering up to the surface of the quagmire is to put it on ignore.

Bye bye.

Click to shrink...

Good Riddance.

 

[walter]

Like it or not, excuses or otherwise, the manager who started this season inherited a team that had won only 4 league games since christmas 2024, and had finished as low as you can finish without dropping down a league.

Click to shrink...

Yet that new manager was still able to do even worse than the previous one, despite being given a raft of reinforcements to the squad, and a first choice defense for most of his tenure.

Even though the brains trust on here assured everyone we'd start flying up the table under literally any other manager.

Despite his faults it's clear that Postecoglou overachieved here, and sacking him is starting to look like almost as big a mistake as sacking Pochettino was.

 

[McCOYS]

But the injuries are not the only factor for his demise and not even the main factor. We've already listed the additional players Frank had, a full pre-season, and even with them fit the football was garbage. I don't think with fully fit squad the football would be more attacking, more courageous because he literally shit canned the players in public. He had no faith in them and he set the team to play that way, injuries or not.

Click to shrink...

I know he wasn't a good manager for our club. I just think people want to highlight the injury issues with Postecoglou as manager in his second season, more than they want to do that for Frank. The focus on Frank is he's crap and the injuries are irrelevant, the team would be in the same league position if the squad had been fully fit.

 

[CJJ]

Again you're ignoring the context of a Europa Cup win. That can't be extricated from the league result (which TBF was worse than what he would have wanted, and is what ultimately and justifiably cost him his job).

Click to shrink...

No I'm not, and yes it can.

Can we agree, then, he was one of our worst league managers and isn't of much use to us in a season without Europa League?

 

[CJJ]

Yet that new manager was still able to do even worse than the previous one, despite being given a raft of reinforcements to the squad, and a first choice defense for most of his tenure.

Click to shrink...

Not worse - exactly the same to be honest - just without excuses made for him.

He had the inverted problem - first choice attack missing for pretty much his entire tenure, losing pretty much all of our top 4 or 5 scorers from the previous season

 

[McCOYS]

Bergvall doesn't even play in the same fucking position as Maddison, let alone trying to make out like he's some uber-bonefide wonderkid like Pedri, guy was literally 18 playing in his first season in the Premier League and you're trying to compare him to what Ange had last season to Xavi who Frank had this season, an actual no10 with significant caps for his NT, what?

Click to shrink...

It was you that brought up the subject that Bergvall was the replacement for Maddison. I simply informed you that Bergvall was awarded player of the season, so an adequate replacement in Maddison's position, otherwise he wouldn't be player of the season, and yes he also played other midfield positions. You're talking about Bergvall like he was a no-mark that we had to bring into the team because Postecoglou wasn't backed (as if he wasn't our player of the season).


Logic is completely wasted on you.

You're being like this because you prefer Postecoglou to Frank, well I prefer him too but I'm not joining in.

So your argument really is Frank got Simons which is better than Postecoglou having Kulusevski and Maddison fit for most of the season before.

 

[Auscock]

Not worse - exactly the same to be honest - just without excuses made for him.

He had the inverted problem - first choice attack missing for pretty much his entire tenure, losing pretty much all of our top 4 or 5 scorers from the previous season

Click to shrink...

Oh.
You must be referring to Son, who moved on.
And BJ, which Frank wouldn't play and sold.
Or are you referring to Kudu, RKM, Simons & Tel?

 

[McCOYS]

Your last point is fair. The difference IMV is that under Postecoglou there were moments of glory, under Frank I can't think of any. He was completely unsuited to us.

Click to shrink...

I agree that Postecoglou was a much better motivator than Frank.

 

[Shotgunofmichalebrow]

You said

"If it looked like we could get relegated than its reasonable to assume that a different approach would have been taken and with possibly different outcomes in the league"

The matter of absolute fact is that the outcomes would not have been different. It is a work of fiction that the teams were picked in a way that would have affected anything. As per my other points, we were losing games irrelevantly of any so-called European focus, and we were dropping points and conceding with VdV and Romero in the line up, with a pretty much full-strength squad.

If he would have had the same squad and same injuries this season, there's absolutely no evidence - based on what we'd seen for 2 years - that we'd be any better off, because all of the issues are just constant excuses for why he couldn't win a game.

If we want to play "if he had better players and no injuries we could have finished top 4" then we're effectively saying that people like Tim Sherwood, Redknapp, and Pochettino were better anyway

Click to shrink...

Honestly think you are wasting your time he has a group of Spartans so committed to the idea of him as this 'winner' that the data reality or any genuinely considered deconstruction of the job he did at Spurs can't be separated from what he achieved at their true love: Celtic or Whittlsea Zebras or Australian nationalism/ national team.

He won the Europa league lovely as a long time Spurs supporter great! Ive seen us win this now a couple of times it's a valued achievement. But Id not take relegation a genuine first for me for it, or and this is the biggie allow the most facile and insane idea of all to take root at the club.

You NEVER accept losing multiple games as okay if it gets a short term monkey of your back. The culture of us just accepting getting beaten by any and every half decent side started under Ange and was baked in under Frank. All the while his supporters talk about the Europa and a winning mentality its utterly antithetical its now a long term.problem RDZ is faced with fixing. Because this is a genuine threat to us look at Leicester it quickly becomes your identity. It was so dangerous that I recall pointing this out under Postecoglou and being told by his supporters that I was silly. Then the injured players returned and the form continues to crater. That's the legacy that started under him 22 league defeats was historic and unacceptable.

 

[walter]

Not worse - exactly the same to be honest - just without excuses made for him.

Click to shrink...

No, definitely worse:

He had the inverted problem - first choice attack missing for pretty much his entire tenure, losing pretty much all of our top 4 or 5 scorers from the previous season

Click to shrink...

Most of the players who came in during the summer were attacking players, though.

Kudus, Xavi, Kolo Muani, were all better signings than Ange got during the previous summer window - on paper at least.

Plus Tomas Frank got Palinha and Gallagher, the sort of defensive midfielders Ange could have done with, (and actually apparently wanted in the case of Gallagher).

 

[Shadydan]

It was you that brought up the subject that Bergvall was the replacement for Maddison. I simply informed you that Bergvall was awarded player of the season, so an adequate replacement in Maddison's position, otherwise he wouldn't be player of the season, and yes he also played other midfield positions. You're talking about Bergvall like he was a no-mark that we had to bring into the team because Postecoglou wasn't backed (as if he wasn't our player of the season).

Click to shrink...

Sigh...please work on your comprehension.

I brought up in relation to the debate we are having, you seem to think that Frank and Ange had a similar injury crisis, my point was Maddison to Bergvall isn't an adequate replacement unlike Maddison to Xavi.

Bergvall is an 8, he's not a 10 like Maddison is, so you're asking an 18 year old to come into the Premier League in his rookie season to replace Maddison, it doesn't matter that he "played other midfield positions" he had 0 prior experience in playing that role and 0 prior experience playing top men's football.

Logic is completely wasted on you.

You're being like this because you prefer Postecoglou to Frank, well I prefer him too but I'm not joining in.

So your argument really is Frank got Simons which is better than Postecoglou having Kulusevski and Maddison fit for most of the season before.

Click to shrink...

Nope, again work on your comprehension or stop trying to twist my argument into something it's not. I've made it clear what my argument is - the two injury situations aren't alike, I've already explained why twice, let's see if you understand it this time.

Noticed you've ignored my questions again as well lols

 

[McCOYS]

Kudus, Xavi, Kolo Muani

Click to shrink...

I'd say Kolo was about as useful for Frank as Werner was for Postecoglou. Bergvall was also injured for a fair while in addition to Kulusevski and Maddison.

It's all swings and roundabouts really, both managers had injury problems of similar magnitude, Frank even had a game when there's wasn't 11 senior players and Romero had to play whist he was unwell to make up the numbers. Postecoglou played Forster in goal. Frank had to use a youth player in defence.

I suggest instead of having a competition to see who can piss the highest we could agree both managers could cite their injuries as a reason for failure, and one isn't any more legitimate than the other.

Which one is actually the better manager is a different conversation IMO.

 

[McCOYS]

Maddison to Bergvall isn't an adequate replacement unlike Maddison to Xavi.

Click to shrink...

That's your opinion, I like Xavi but other people think he's been shit.

It doesn't matter anyway because Postecoglou had Maddison and Kulusevski fit for most of the season, and Frank had Xavi for that position when he wasn't injured as well.

You obviously think having Xavi is better than having Maddison and Kulusevski, that's up to you, I don't agree. And again Begvall was voted player of the season inclusing when he replaced Maddison.

This is like shouting into a cave.

 

[Auscock]

Forget the injuries debate about this season and the previous one.

The reality is, would you prefer the shambles we've been playing this season or the attacking football of last season?

What if we had 2 or 3 competent back-up players for every position like the other Big 6 do?

Do you think that Ange-ball would work then?