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Manager Antonio Conte

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We didn't though .. and that was never more than a pipedream. We lost 2-0 & it should've been more, our keeper was our MOTM by a country mile. We lose 4-0 and is it a fair representation of the game? I'd say so, yeah.

Got battered. At half-time we managed to escape with our lives and I pondered how amusing a smash & grab would be but at any point after that we weren't even in the game.

I've not said it would have been deserved, but lets not pretend we've not seen such a game-plan work in a fuck-tonne of games for many many clubs before.

Utd. were good, but not 4-0 good........ Goalkeepers ARE allowed to make saves you know... It's not cheating. Their 1st goal was a b-r-u-t-a-l deflection too.
 
I've not said it would have been deserved, but lets not pretend we've not seen such a game-plan work in a fuck-tonne of games for many many clubs before.

Utd. were good, but not 4-0 good........ Goalkeepers ARE allowed to make saves you know... It's not cheating. Their 1st goal was a b-r-u-t-a-l deflection too.

Yeah, and when the goalkeeper is MOTM it suggests that maybe as a collective the team hasn't done all that well.

Goalkeepers are expected to make saves, not be peppered all game. They're the last line of defence, not the first.

Anyway, just talking about this game pisses me off. Currently dislike most of the squad because of it, so gutless and pathetic.
 
Yeah, and when the goalkeeper is MOTM it suggests that maybe as a collective the team hasn't done all that well.

Goalkeepers are expected to make saves, not be peppered all game. They're the last line of defence, not the first.

Anyway, just talking about this game pisses me off. Currently dislike most of the squad because of it, so gutless and pathetic.

C'est la vie... None of this is a quest for me to change your mind.
 
A loss is a loss.

Only one other top 6 teams has performed better than us all season results wise. That's a fact.

It wasn’t just a loss

We can all accept that

It was a gutless cowardly shitshow by players who are bottle jobs and a clueless stubborn manager which we can’t accept and why should we?
 
We didn't though .. and that was never more than a pipedream. We lost 2-0 & it should've been more, our keeper was our MOTM by a country mile. We lose 4-0 and is it a fair representation of the game? I'd say so, yeah.

Got battered. At half-time we managed to escape with our lives and I pondered how amusing a smash & grab would be but at any point after that we weren't even in the game.

And you’ll get posters coming on saying crap like
“Have you finished wetting the bed yet??”

Like we should accept that shitshow
 
And you’ll get posters coming on saying crap like
“Have you finished wetting the bed yet??”

Like we should accept that shitshow

I can tell you one thing for certain, whether you rate him or not Conte's own response to the performance will have been about as far from 'rational' or 'reasonable' as you can get. He certainly won't be saying 'oh but but away games r hard!!!' or 'a loss is a loss!'.

He'd have been livid, it was so gutless. He even essentially indirectly called them out with the whole 'United are a better team than us' thing after.
 
I can tell you one thing for certain, whether you rate him or not Conte's own response to the performance will have been about as far from 'rational' or 'reasonable' as you can get. He certainly won't be saying 'oh but but away games r hard!!!' or 'a loss is a loss!'.

Good.

He'd have been livid, it was so gutless. He even essentially indirectly called them out with the whole 'United are a better team than us' thing after

Based on his performance; I wonder if he's asking himself if ETH is better than him too?
 
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Based on his performance; I wonder if he's asking himself if ETH is better than him too?

I'm not best pleased with a lot of what we're seeing currently under Conte but there were a lot of fundamentals on display that go beyond bad management .... lot of very poor individual displays on show out there. A lot of players looking scared to play at Old Trafford.

But yes, I hope he's being equally critical of himself.
 
I'm not best pleased with a lot of what we're seeing currently under Conte but there were a lot of fundamentals on display that go beyond bad management .... lot of very poor individual displays on show out there. A lot of players looking scared to play at Old Trafford.

But yes, I hope he's being equally critical of himself.

He had a stinker in the 2nd half.
 
I can tell you one thing for certain, whether you rate him or not Conte's own response to the performance will have been about as far from 'rational' or 'reasonable' as you can get. He certainly won't be saying 'oh but but away games r hard!!!' or 'a loss is a loss!'.

He'd have been livid, it was so gutless. He even essentially indirectly called them out with the whole 'United are a better team than us' thing after.

I remember him having a right go at Bentancur during the game but they all deserved any shit he threw at them
 
I can tell you one thing for certain, whether you rate him or not Conte's own response to the performance will have been about as far from 'rational' or 'reasonable' as you can get. He certainly won't be saying 'oh but but away games r hard!!!' or 'a loss is a loss!'.

He'd have been livid, it was so gutless. He even essentially indirectly called them out with the whole 'United are a better team than us' thing after.
I can’t remember seeing so many poor first touches and basic passing errors from any Spurs side in recent memory.

It was definitely a mental thing.
 
I back Conte over any of our players to be honest. We need Levy to properly back him too, likes of Dier, Davies etc need proper replacements.

Or we can go and get a more attacking coach and see how well he does with the Spurs Lodge Loafers that Levy foists on him.
 
The issue that Conte is facing is that we don't have enough goal scorers in the team; and we have zero goal creators.

We were chasing a goal against United. Kane was doing his best impression of Emile Heskey and Son couldn't find space.

We have seen time and time again games where these 2 have stinkers; but pop up with a goal out of nowhere - so it's clear why they are left on the pitch. Bringing on Gil / Moura wasn't likely to improve our goalscoring chances.

Skipp / Sarr aren't going to improve midfield creativity. Bissouma was poor; and its clear why he hasn't been getting starts. He got in Holjberg's way and those 2 weren't effective.
 
Patience is needed.
It took Liverpool almost three years to win their first trophy under Klopp, but the improvement was evident. Liverpool’s progress under Klopp was steady but real at the same time.

Again this moot point.
Conte won't even stay for 3 years.
That is not a yardstick to measure short-spell-manager like Conte.

If you compete and suck at 400 m race, it's not much of an excuse that in marathon distance you would have rocked the last 10k. Competition never reached that and never will.
 
Well, now some time has passed from the game, some emotions cooled off.
It is bit of oversimplification from both sides really. Which is fine, cause I too am on the fence, so I can see both sides.

First of all - I do no not give a shit about possession. And there are more than 1 way to win a game. I think it is fine that if you play pragmatically and plan on counter-attacks, there are some games where you borderline fall apart. ManU game was one of them.

2nd of all - I do not give a fuck about shots that opposing team has. It is pointless metrics that comes from the way Conte has set up the team. Opposition players have room outside of the box and so many shots taken are just very-very speculative. xG against gives much better picture cause it also considers the quality of the chance.

3rd point - I actually think we were set up well yesterday from the start. We started the game well and in first 20 minutes passing patterns worked, we created some quite okay chances. Also managed to win ball back from them number of times. But what happened since like 22 minute mark - I just don't get it. ManU put some pressure on our box and we just crumbled. It did not help at all that Son might as well have stayed home. Literally - him not being on the field would have changed nothing. Another issue I noticed was that both our fullbacks lacked directness. There were moments where one could sprint with the ball, but they chose safer option. Why? I have no idea.

So that much to defend / support Conte.
Of course I saw some major problems as well.

4th point - how and why dafuq did he wait until 80 minute mark with any substitutions ?!?!? Sure, we did not have Kulu and Richie available. And we did not have some magic weapon to bring on. But heck - we could not control passes. Surely ~60-65th minute mark trying more rested Skippy for Benta could have changed something. I am not much of a fan of Moura, but Son was just shocking in every possible way, no chance that Moura would have been worse for last 30 minutes. And Perisic started just few days earlier as well - why not give Sess last 20 minutes? Would have those changes dramatically altered the game - possibly and even likely not. But YOU HAVE TO TRY. Not to just accept beating.

5th point - against top teams that put pressure on us - PEH and Benta cannot operate if they don't have room around them. All fine and dandy that we can manage to beat lower-half teams consistently with them. But games against opposition like Chelsea and ManU prove time and time again that there is real need for someone with better ball control. Someone who can win AND retain possession. Otherwise we are like flag in strong winds - flapping around from one side to another, but don't control much. We did not have much better options to pick from, but it is also down to Conte. I never felt like he even wanted to get better ball-playing CM in the summer window. He is fine with workhorses and playing them 2x a week for 90 minutes. Which is weird to be honest.

So I do not think we should panic, but some worry is justified. I tend to agree with those who say that results have flattered us to some extent. Meaning results have been better than underlying performances. Kane and his moments of brilliance have carried us. But he has got us so many points on his own. I think we'd be below 10th place without his goals. If threat only comes from one player, he can be also taken out of the game eventually. So Conte has to come up with something. FAST. Pointing fingers ain't gonna help.
 
I understand the principle of setting up teams to be resilient and fortress like in their defending, and to stretch out the opponents to set them up for a fast counter.

This relies on defenders and midfielders retaining the ball and playing passes to our forwards, or into space they can exploit. I have no memory of witnessing any of that control or ability from our midfield on Wednesday. As per The Spur Est's post above, possession doesn't mean everything - but there is one immutable fact - and that is, the opposition can't score if we keep the ball. It becomes much harder for them to score if we actually start passing to people in the same strip as us (that strip on Wednesday is the work of the Devil - it should be burned, buried and never spoken of again) - as opposed to firing the ball straight back at the opposition, maybe everyone in our support section should wave a flag that say's - "Go on, have another go" every time we do it.

Airfix in another post on here (TFC, not necessarily this thread) rebutted Moany Joany I think, by quoting stats about our points against the top 2 last season and decimating 10 man Woolwich at WHL - and whilst I get where he's coming from, that point is broken by the amount of matches we played where we looked like the last game.

I like the (good) results, but hate the method by which we achieve them - we really are starting to look like Stoke, and not even good stoke - I mean relegation Stoke. Yep don't tell me our league position, we are still top 4, but I suspect that it won't be for long. We've been royally found out, and now we are starting to make teams like Manure look like WC70 Brazil, by playing in this hideous "Tortoise mode" and hoping that Lloris got laid before the game.

I love the way people on here are slagging Dier off, as if he is entirely to blame, that guy was being bombarded for 90 minutes by a fast flowing attack that came straight down our throats and he was like a lone sentry for most of the game, is it any real surprise that he didn't deal with every assault with text book precision? He's not prime Bobby Moore or Beckenbauer, but he's not Anthony Gardner or Calum Davenport either, until we stop using him as a flack jacket to protect the goal, and stick a midfield in front of him that can retain and recycle the ball, the poor bastard is going to crack at some point against a constant, unchecked flow of high speed attacks.

We need to change this game plan IMV, we don't have the midfield to make it work, and if we don't supply Kane and Son with good opportunities, then they might as well get a couple of deckchairs and sit and watch the decimation from a point of comfort.
 
Well, now some time has passed from the game, some emotions cooled off.
It is bit of oversimplification from both sides really. Which is fine, cause I too am on the fence, so I can see both sides.

First of all - I do no not give a shit about possession. And there are more than 1 way to win a game. I think it is fine that if you play pragmatically and plan on counter-attacks, there are some games where you borderline fall apart. ManU game was one of them.

2nd of all - I do not give a fuck about shots that opposing team has. It is pointless metrics that comes from the way Conte has set up the team. Opposition players have room outside of the box and so many shots taken are just very-very speculative. xG against gives much better picture cause it also considers the quality of the chance.

3rd point - I actually think we were set up well yesterday from the start. We started the game well and in first 20 minutes passing patterns worked, we created some quite okay chances. Also managed to win ball back from them number of times. But what happened since like 22 minute mark - I just don't get it. ManU put some pressure on our box and we just crumbled. It did not help at all that Son might as well have stayed home. Literally - him not being on the field would have changed nothing. Another issue I noticed was that both our fullbacks lacked directness. There were moments where one could sprint with the ball, but they chose safer option. Why? I have no idea.

So that much to defend / support Conte.
Of course I saw some major problems as well.

4th point - how and why dafuq did he wait until 80 minute mark with any substitutions ?!?!? Sure, we did not have Kulu and Richie available. And we did not have some magic weapon to bring on. But heck - we could not control passes. Surely ~60-65th minute mark trying more rested Skippy for Benta could have changed something. I am not much of a fan of Moura, but Son was just shocking in every possible way, no chance that Moura would have been worse for last 30 minutes. And Perisic started just few days earlier as well - why not give Sess last 20 minutes? Would have those changes dramatically altered the game - possibly and even likely not. But YOU HAVE TO TRY. Not to just accept beating.

5th point - against top teams that put pressure on us - PEH and Benta cannot operate if they don't have room around them. All fine and dandy that we can manage to beat lower-half teams consistently with them. But games against opposition like Chelsea and ManU prove time and time again that there is real need for someone with better ball control. Someone who can win AND retain possession. Otherwise we are like flag in strong winds - flapping around from one side to another, but don't control much. We did not have much better options to pick from, but it is also down to Conte. I never felt like he even wanted to get better ball-playing CM in the summer window. He is fine with workhorses and playing them 2x a week for 90 minutes. Which is weird to be honest.

So I do not think we should panic, but some worry is justified. I tend to agree with those who say that results have flattered us to some extent. Meaning results have been better than underlying performances. Kane and his moments of brilliance have carried us. But he has got us so many points on his own. I think we'd be below 10th place without his goals. If threat only comes from one player, he can be also taken out of the game eventually. So Conte has to come up with something. FAST. Pointing fingers ain't gonna help.

If this is what you call cooled off then I'd hate to see you when you're pissed :D
 
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