Che Poch Revolutionary Insurgency Advancing

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Nice analysis. No doubt a major part of the improvement is that our midfielders have learned Poch's system. I seem to recall it taking a full year for Saints to understand his philosophy. Clearly, Lamela's defensive improvement from the start of last year until now has been pretty fucking impressive. Also, it's pretty obvious that Dembele is miles better defensively than Chadli.

But I bet the improved defensive stats of our attacking players is partially related to the massive decrease in our giveaways in dangerous spots. It seemed like last year we were constantly giving the ball away in terrible positions in midfield. As a result, there was just no way to set up the press. This year, we have rarely given the ball away in bad spots. Dier and Alli have been less prone to turning the ball over than Bentaleb and (especially) Mason. That alone is inevitably going to lead to more opportunities to press and better defensive numbers for our front four, I would think.

Agree. In fact whilst I agree with the OP's article about the work done by the front four, it is still only half the story.

Liverpool pressed us for a solid 20 mins in Clip Klopps first game. Despite the subsequent furious wanking from commentators and press pack over how brilliant Liverpool were and Klopp is the greatest manager in the world because of his fucking gegenpressing they didn't create a single chance as a result of it (they hit the crossbar following a corner, which was conceded from a block by Rose having recovered after needlessly giving away the ball whilst NOT under any pressure). Why did they not create a single chance during this spell? Our boys a) passed it back to Lloris and Lolerpool didn't press the keeper b) They passed it very well between each other at the back, Dembele was a massive influence in keeping the ball too . c) We kicked it out for a throw in d) We did loose the ball - but we won it back almost immediately. e) We kept our shape and were compact and didn't dive in.

Whilst the first 20 mins was not very pretty from our part, as Liverpools press prevented us to do anything meaningful with it, it actually shows just how fucking good we are at dealing with an intense period of pressure. Citeh did a much better job on us than Liverpool when they pressed us, that's because they had much better players but in both games both our opponents completely fucked themselves as a result of their pressing, thinking that they could blow us away in the opening 20 mins, both couldn't live with us after their initial spells of pressure.

It's annoying that the press/commentators wax lyrical about any team that is doing the pressing but don't actually look closely at it, if it is actually effective or not, by that I mean create chances as a result of it. If it is not effective then credit must be given to the defending side. But hey ho.

 

[Totti]

Agree. In fact whilst I agree with the OP's article about the work done by the front four, it is still only half the story.

Liverpool pressed us for a solid 20 mins in Clip Klopps first game. Despite the subsequent furious wanking from commentators and press pack over how brilliant Liverpool were and Klopp is the greatest manager in the world because of his fucking gegenpressing they didn't create a single chance as a result of it (they hit the crossbar following a corner, which was conceded from a block by Rose having recovered after needlessly giving away the ball whilst NOT under any pressure). Why did they not create a single chance during this spell? Our boys a) passed it back to Lloris and Lolerpool didn't press the keeper b) They passed it very well between each other at the back, Dembele was a massive influence in keeping the ball too . c) We kicked it out for a throw in d) We did loose the ball - but we won it back almost immediately. e) We kept our shape and were compact and didn't dive in.

Whilst the first 20 mins was not very pretty from our part, as Liverpools press prevented us to do anything meaningful with it, it actually shows just how fucking good we are at dealing with an intense period of pressure. Citeh did a much better job on us than Liverpool when they pressed us, that's because they had much better players but in both games both our opponents completely fucked themselves as a result of their pressing, thinking that they could blow us away in the opening 20 mins, both couldn't live with us after their initial spells of pressure.

It's annoying that the press/commentators wax lyrical about any team that is doing the pressing but don't actually look closely at it, if it is actually effective or not, by that I mean create chances as a result of it. If it is not effective then credit must be given to the defending side. But hey ho.

Agreed. Woolwich were the same. They started brightly but after the initial pressure and realising 'fuck, this isn't going to be as easy as first thought' they panicked and couldn't deal with us at times.

Its a joy to watch.

 

[bus-conductor]

Nice analysis. No doubt a major part of the improvement is that our midfielders have learned Poch's system. I seem to recall it taking a full year for Saints to understand his philosophy. Clearly, Lamela's defensive improvement from the start of last year until now has been pretty fucking impressive. Also, it's pretty obvious that Dembele is miles better defensively than Chadli.

But I bet the improved defensive stats of our attacking players is partially related to the massive decrease in our giveaways in dangerous spots. It seemed like last year we were constantly giving the ball away in terrible positions in midfield. As a result, there was just no way to set up the press. This year, we have rarely given the ball away in bad spots. Dier and Alli have been less prone to turning the ball over than Bentaleb and (especially) Mason. That alone is inevitably going to lead to more opportunities to press and better defensive numbers for our front four, I would think.

Sorry mate but this is simply not the case. Almost the reverse and I believe the stats support this.

Last year the problem was the lack of effective pressing from the front, combined with a high line and full backs in advanced positions.

This pulled the CM's forwards and/or sideways and created empty gaps and channels which made it much easier to expose our high CB's and FB's up the pitch and made our CM's look very stretched.

Pochettino seemed to have found a superb balance in the early Spring when we absolutely pressed the bollocks out of Woolwich at WHL then Liverpool at Anfield. The front four for those games ? The same one we have seen most this season (Kane, Lamela, Dembele, Eriksen). For some inexplicable reason he then changed the side and brought in Chadli and Townsend for a sequence of games, our pressing from the front went to pish and so did our form.

In terms of careless passes Dier has made more than anyone this season, he made in the same ManU game that Bentaleb did but just didn't get punished, he's made a few others, most recently the one against Villa which also went unpunished at a time in the game when we were wobbling.

Considering how many more successful and forward passes per 90 minutes Mason (51/Fwd 42) and Bentaleb (56/Fwd 40) made last year than Dier (44/Fwd 35) and Alli (33/Fwd 25) this year. Their completion rates are far more impressive - Mason (84%), Bentaleb (87%) than Dier (86%) and Alli's (78%).

 

[Joe Clash]

Sorry mate but this is simply not the case. Almost the reverse and I believe the stats support this.

Last year the problem was the lack of effective pressing from the front, combined with a high line and full backs in advanced positions.

This pulled the CM's forwards and/or sideways and created empty gaps and channels which made it much easier to expose our high CB's and FB's up the pitch and made our CM's look very stretched.

Pochettino seemed to have found a superb balance in the early Spring when we absolutely pressed the bollocks out of Woolwich at WHL then Liverpool at Anfield. The front four for those games ? The same one we have seen most this season (Kane, Lamela, Dembele, Eriksen). For some inexplicable reason he then changed the side and brought in Chadli and Townsend for a sequence of games, our pressing from the front went to pish and so did our form.

In terms of careless passes Dier has made more than anyone this season, he made in the same ManU game that Bentaleb did but just didn't get punished, he's made a few others, most recently the one against Villa which also went unpunished at a time in the game when we were wobbling.

Considering how many more successful and forward passes per 90 minutes Mason (51/Fwd 42) and Bentaleb (56/Fwd 40) made last year than Dier (44/Fwd 35) and Alli (33/Fwd 25) this year. Their completion rates are far more impressive - Mason (84%), Bentaleb (87%) than Dier (86%) and Alli's (78%).

How is 84% Mason far more impressive than 86% Dier?

 

[The Yinzer]

Sorry mate but this is simply not the case. Almost the reverse and I believe the stats support this.

Last year the problem was the lack of effective pressing from the front, combined with a high line and full backs in advanced positions.

This pulled the CM's forwards and/or sideways and created empty gaps and channels which made it much easier to expose our high CB's and FB's up the pitch and made our CM's look very stretched.

Pochettino seemed to have found a superb balance in the early Spring when we absolutely pressed the bollocks out of Woolwich at WHL then Liverpool at Anfield. The front four for those games ? The same one we have seen most this season (Kane, Lamela, Dembele, Eriksen). For some inexplicable reason he then changed the side and brought in Chadli and Townsend for a sequence of games, our pressing from the front went to pish and so did our form.

In terms of careless passes Dier has made more than anyone this season, he made in the same ManU game that Bentaleb did but just didn't get punished, he's made a few others, most recently the one against Villa which also went unpunished at a time in the game when we were wobbling.

Considering how many more successful and forward passes per 90 minutes Mason (51/Fwd 42) and Bentaleb (56/Fwd 40) made last year than Dier (44/Fwd 35) and Alli (33/Fwd 25) this year. Their completion rates are far more impressive - Mason (84%), Bentaleb (87%) than Dier (86%) and Alli's (78%).

Interesting. This is one of those rare instances where the stats don't seem to match the eyes. I presume conventional wisdom would have agreed with me. A stats based fucking off of conventional wisdom would make a pretty compelling post.

 

[bus-conductor]

How is 84% Mason far more impressive than 86% Dier?

Because he's making more passes and more forward passes, which increases the difficulty of completion percentage, yet still only 3% off Dier.

In other words if all you are doing is tapping the ball safe and sideways you're completion percentage should be extremely high. Mason was making more passes and more progressive passes, so to still be 3% off Dier (Bentaleb even more than Dier) is impressive. Mason's also makes marginally more tackles than Dier per 90 min too.

 

[Joe Clash]

Because he's making more passes and more forward passes, which increases the difficulty of completion percentage, yet still only 3% off Dier.

In other words if all you are doing is tapping the ball safe and sideways you're completion percentage should be extremely high. Mason was making more passes and more progressive passes, so to still be 3% off Dier (Bentaleb even more than Dier) is impressive. Mason's also makes marginally more tackles than Dier per 90 min too.

Ah, the way your post read it seemed you had separated the two disciplines.

 

[bus-conductor]

Agree. In fact whilst I agree with the OP's article about the work done by the front four, it is still only half the story.

Liverpool pressed us for a solid 20 mins in Clip Klopps first game. Despite the subsequent furious wanking from commentators and press pack over how brilliant Liverpool were and Klopp is the greatest manager in the world because of his fucking gegenpressing they didn't create a single chance as a result of it (they hit the crossbar following a corner, which was conceded from a block by Rose having recovered after needlessly giving away the ball whilst NOT under any pressure). Why did they not create a single chance during this spell? Our boys a) passed it back to Lloris and Lolerpool didn't press the keeper b) They passed it very well between each other at the back, Dembele was a massive influence in keeping the ball too . c) We kicked it out for a throw in d) We did loose the ball - but we won it back almost immediately. e) We kept our shape and were compact and didn't dive in.

Whilst the first 20 mins was not very pretty from our part, as Liverpools press prevented us to do anything meaningful with it, it actually shows just how fucking good we are at dealing with an intense period of pressure. Citeh did a much better job on us than Liverpool when they pressed us, that's because they had much better players but in both games both our opponents completely fucked themselves as a result of their pressing, thinking that they could blow us away in the opening 20 mins, both couldn't live with us after their initial spells of pressure.

It's annoying that the press/commentators wax lyrical about any team that is doing the pressing but don't actually look closely at it, if it is actually effective or not, by that I mean create chances as a result of it. If it is not effective then credit must be given to the defending side. But hey ho.

Jonathan Northcroft wrote an excellent piece on our Liverpool game, I don't have a Times tab so can't post it all but this was the first few lines:



JURGEN KLOPP liked the ambience of his first Premier League game but that wasn’t important. “We are not here to enjoy,” he said. After nine days of talk and toothy grins, match day saw Klopp get serious. No more selfies. Time to work. And what work those Liverpool players have in store. What sweat red jerseys are about to absorb. A team who were growing disinterested and dysfunctional under Brendan Rodgers were transformed into a hunting, harrying, hundred-miles-an-hour machine.

And yet what work Klopp also needs to do. For all their effort, Liverpool were not the best side: in Tottenham, Klopp came up against the prime example of how, in this competition, he will have to go some if he’s to stand out by making men run.

If Liverpool's effort levels were phenomenal so are those, habitually, of Mauricio Pochettino's Spurs and these 90 minutes were ferocious.

He basically went on to praise our performance.

 

[VirginiaSpur]

I disagree with the conductor's conclusions.

 

[Bri]

Because he's making more passes and more forward passes, which increases the difficulty of completion percentage, yet still only 3% off Dier.

In other words if all you are doing is tapping the ball safe and sideways you're completion percentage should be extremely high. Mason was making more passes and more progressive passes, so to still be 3% off Dier (Bentaleb even more than Dier) is impressive. Mason's also makes marginally more tackles than Dier per 90 min too.

Surely it's a case of when u try that risky pass or safe pass rather than how many times u do it that determines the more appropriate player we need in the position? I for one am pretty sure dier will still be preferred hm at the end of the season

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Jonathan Northcroft wrote an excellent piece on our Liverpool game, I don't have a Times tab so can't post it all but this was the first few lines:



JURGEN KLOPP liked the ambience of his first Premier League game but that wasn’t important. “We are not here to enjoy,” he said. After nine days of talk and toothy grins, match day saw Klopp get serious. No more selfies. Time to work. And what work those Liverpool players have in store. What sweat red jerseys are about to absorb. A team who were growing disinterested and dysfunctional under Brendan Rodgers were transformed into a hunting, harrying, hundred-miles-an-hour machine.

And yet what work Klopp also needs to do. For all their effort, Liverpool were not the best side: in Tottenham, Klopp came up against the prime example of how, in this competition, he will have to go some if he’s to stand out by making men run.

If Liverpool's effort levels were phenomenal so are those, habitually, of Mauricio Pochettino's Spurs and these 90 minutes were ferocious.

He basically went on to praise our performance.

Thanks for posting.
I think most people said we were the better side that day, but the point I was trying to make was how good we were in dealing with Liverpool's pressing. Everything I have seen/heard about post this game talks about how great Liverpool were during this oppening 20 min phase of he game, whilst it resulted in us being hemmed in, they didn't create a single chance because of it, which actually means their pressing was ineffective.

Man Citeh's pressing was far better resulting in a goal and a few other chances that Lloris was alive to, but unlike previous recent meetings between them, we were only 0-1 down and had 11 men on the pitch so we were very much still in the game which we took full advantage of.

This makes us a formidable side to play against, if teams sit back against us and park the bus we are brave enough to concede territory, drop deep and drawn teams onto us (we no longer play the semi-circle of doom football on the edge of oppo's box going from side to side). When side's want to press us (Citeh, Lolerpool & Woolwich) we can deal with that too.

How Bilic sets up against us will be fascinating, as their successes this season has been on the counter away from home. (FWIW, my guess is they will play the horseman up top and have their fullbacks and Lanzini ping crosses to him, our only weakness I have seen from us this season has been dealing with crosses from wide positions).

 

[DeeGee]

I'm glad you mentioned the blood doping first Juicy Sushi - I've found that people can get very hot under the collar at this suggestion.

IMO it's absolutely endemic in football - and started in the bike-doping heartlands of Spain and Italy.

Wenger was moaning on about it in L'Equipe this week:

“In 30 years as a coach, I have never had my players injected so that they might perform better. I’m proud of that. I have played against a lot of teams who were not in the same frame of mind.”

But lest we forget, here's what Paul Merson said in his autobiography:

As to the, “In 30 years as a coach, I have never had my players injected so that they might perform better. I’m proud of that.' quote
He (Wenger) also said that if any one of the players that have played for him state otherwise he will resign tomorrow.
So, the question is: If these 'vitamin' injections, that Merson confesses to & Woolwich have admitted administering, have improved performance is Arsne going to resign on Monday?

 

[DeeGee]

Thanks for posting.
I think most people said we were the better side that day, but the point I was trying to make was how good we were in dealing with Liverpool's pressing. Everything I have seen/heard about post this game talks about how great Liverpool were during this oppening 20 min phase of he game, whilst it resulted in us being hemmed in, they didn't create a single chance because of it, which actually means their pressing was ineffective.

Man Citeh's pressing was far better resulting in a goal and a few other chances that Lloris was alive to, but unlike previous recent meetings between them, we were only 0-1 down and had 11 men on the pitch so we were very much still in the game which we took full advantage of.

This makes us a formidable side to play against, if teams sit back against us and park the bus we are brave enough to concede territory, drop deep and drawn teams onto us (we no longer play the semi-circle of doom football on the edge of oppo's box going from side to side). When side's want to press us (Citeh, Lolerpool & Woolwich) we can deal with that too.

How Bilic sets up against us will be fascinating, as their successes this season has been on the counter away from home. (FWIW, my guess is they will play the horseman up top and have their fullbacks and Lanzini ping crosses to him, our only weakness I have seen from us this season has been dealing with crosses from wide positions).

It will also be interesting to see how we cope without Lamela's perpetual running, tenacity and doggedness

 

[Bri]

It will also be interesting to see how we cope without Lamela's perpetual running, tenacity and doggedness

I hope son has been watching on and realising what's needed when u don't have the ball, although I don't think I would mind Kane dropping into midfield and son up top not that it should matter when all 4 are meant to interchange