Do you give any credit for us being spoken of in the same breath as the superclubs rather than Everton or Villa despite being in a new age of unheralded inequality?
-
The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...
Management ENIC
- Thread starter The Fighting Cock
- Start date
Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports
I do agree with your toxic comments. I might take a step back after today.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not prepared to give them that much credit! It’s just I don’t really recognise the distinction between footballing activity and business activity. In reality, I’m not sure it exists.
I am of the same opinion as
FightingIllini
. I don’t want to speak on his behalf, but the entire ENIC project feels like it was the building and delivery of an incredible footballing asset, namely the stadium. That is where their expertise is and it’s certainly where their sense of risk and reward lies; in property development. I’d love to see them reap their reward and mooch off into the sunset with billions to their name.I don’t think they have demonstrated anything like the same level of expertise in footballing activities. And whilst I recognise your efforts to lay out success metrics by increment, football is, and always will be, a zero sum game. I’m concerned to hear them talk about their virtuous circle of investment, because you don’t improve 5% by having 5% more revenue. You improve by having a clear five/ten year plan of the team you are building and the players that will get you there.
Never, for a single second, have I seen ENIC demonstrate that sort of methodical thinking. Levy lurches from one manager to the next, conflicting styles and values.
It’s a mess.
You can't do that
This place wouldn't survive without your superior intellect and charm
That's to say nothing for your ready wit and charisma
You have a mission , don't let the people down , they look up to you and need your guidance
Speaking of toxic comments…
Our club is a fucking mess, fighting between fans, I have never known such a toxic atmosphere at this club as it is right now.
I myself have flip flopped on Levy many times because I always like to believe he could turn things around at this club based on the fact that not every single decision he has ever made has been poor on the footballing side of matters, also, his ability on the business end of things cannot be disputed imo.
However, I am firmly of the belief now that he should step back from footballing matters because I think since Poch it has been one bad decision after another and I think it's based on his ego personally at this point and that's what is upsetting me, it feels like his ego is coming before the club.
I think he is trying to fix his own mistakes and by doing so just keeps digging a bigger hole for the club and himself and the only fix to this problem is for him to completely step away from any footballing decisions, remove himself from the training ground or being anywhere near the team or signings.
Basically, no longer be the chairman is what I am trying to say, he should be in charge of infrastructure and business deals not related to football and allow someone with fresh ideas to come in and do something different on the football side of things, I think Levy has almost made himself this dark cloud hanging over the football decisions now and it's just making things worse.
The reasons for which have been outlined countless times.
However, I do believe there is a middle ground to be had here because I think even the "Levy in" people acknowledge that he has made very poor mistakes on the football side, the only difference being is that, I think they believe he can still turn it around based on previous success (Poch) I just personally don't see that being the case as I think we are entering uncharted territory with all the issues surrounding the club currently.
This is ignoring of course the huge trophy drought the club has faced since him being our chairman but again, some Spurs supporters don't seem to value success in trophies so it's difficult to argue that poin, maybe it's become so engrained that we are the "underdogs" in their minds that just qualifying for Europe is a success, again, it's because of Levy making the club so successful that the expectations have been (rightly) raised.
Either way you argue, pro or against, I think the middle ground should be that change needs to happen before things get worse; now what "change" that is will be debated but I think the questions need to be first asked about Levy, not managers or players but how LEVY is operating, as, at least from where I am sitting, he seems to be the common factor in recent failures.
I think there has to be a middle ground somewhere in this debate.
I myself have flip flopped on Levy many times because I always like to believe he could turn things around at this club based on the fact that not every single decision he has ever made has been poor on the footballing side of matters, also, his ability on the business end of things cannot be disputed imo.
However, I am firmly of the belief now that he should step back from footballing matters because I think since Poch it has been one bad decision after another and I think it's based on his ego personally at this point and that's what is upsetting me, it feels like his ego is coming before the club.
I think he is trying to fix his own mistakes and by doing so just keeps digging a bigger hole for the club and himself and the only fix to this problem is for him to completely step away from any footballing decisions, remove himself from the training ground or being anywhere near the team or signings.
Basically, no longer be the chairman is what I am trying to say, he should be in charge of infrastructure and business deals not related to football and allow someone with fresh ideas to come in and do something different on the football side of things, I think Levy has almost made himself this dark cloud hanging over the football decisions now and it's just making things worse.
The reasons for which have been outlined countless times.
However, I do believe there is a middle ground to be had here because I think even the "Levy in" people acknowledge that he has made very poor mistakes on the football side, the only difference being is that, I think they believe he can still turn it around based on previous success (Poch) I just personally don't see that being the case as I think we are entering uncharted territory with all the issues surrounding the club currently.
This is ignoring of course the huge trophy drought the club has faced since him being our chairman but again, some Spurs supporters don't seem to value success in trophies so it's difficult to argue that poin, maybe it's become so engrained that we are the "underdogs" in their minds that just qualifying for Europe is a success, again, it's because of Levy making the club so successful that the expectations have been (rightly) raised.
Either way you argue, pro or against, I think the middle ground should be that change needs to happen before things get worse; now what "change" that is will be debated but I think the questions need to be first asked about Levy, not managers or players but how LEVY is operating, as, at least from where I am sitting, he seems to be the common factor in recent failures.
Don’t use the we could be worse off defence
By the way I have on many occasions mentioned on here what a very shrewd businessman Wes Edens is . I fully expect them to be a serious threat .You should be saying how have Villa come from nowhere under a recent new owner to be almost on a par with us , especially considering how far they were behind . It has not taken Edens 23 years to catch us up that’s for sure . Newcastle have gone past us and as yet have not leveraged the Saudi money
We see things differently but both you andDon’t get me wrong, I’m not prepared to give them that much credit! It’s just I don’t really recognise the distinction between footballing activity and business activity. In reality, I’m not sure it exists.
I am of the same opinion as
I don’t think they have demonstrated anything like the same level of expertise in footballing activities. And whilst I recognise your efforts to lay out success metrics by increment, football is, and always will be, a zero sum game. I’m concerned to hear them talk about their virtuous circle of investment, because you don’t improve 5% by having 5% more revenue. You improve by having a clear five/ten year plan of the team you are building and the players that will get you there.
Never, for a single second, have I seen ENIC demonstrate that sort of methodical thinking. Levy lurches from one manager to the next, conflicting styles and values.
It’s a mess.
FightingIllini
have considered, evidence-based views. I respect your stance and agree with a lot of what you say.Compare the way you two engage with someone like
Honest John
and there are levels.The context is that ENIC took over at a time when there was a decade long duopoly in English football - Man Utd and Woolwich were by far the biggest clubs. Since then Chelsea and Man City have permanently changed the English football landscape being backed by the wealth of a nation. Newcastle now are the same.
Only two clubs have managed to meaningfully enter the conversation in a sustained way. Liverpool - arguably the biggest club in England - and us.
The fact is that we are no longer in an era where a good, honest club can compete over time because the league is a kind of monopoly. That Levy and ENIC have got us so close is genuinely something incredible and whilst I expect opposition fans to underrate that, I don’t expect spurs fans to do the same.
Were a bright kid from a local school trying to compete in a world of aristocrats and nouveau riche. I’m proud of who we are.
Time to answer my 4 points , about how much was good planning as opposed to good fortune
And the views of yet another Levy appointment....
"What are you chasing, titles or economic success"
"Are you trying to win money over titles"
"I should have resigned sooner when I saw what was happening "
"What are you chasing, titles or economic success"
"Are you trying to win money over titles"
"I should have resigned sooner when I saw what was happening "
Last edited:
Now I don’t see that as particularly toxic , you must admit your tone can be extremely condescending, he is just playing with that on this occasion
Villa and Newcastle have not overtaken us. One season (in fact less than a season) particularly such a chaotic one, does not change 20 years of performance. That’s bed wetting.
There are other well run clubs too though and I take nothing away from them.
It wasn’t, by the way, a « we could be worse off » defence. It was asking you to recognise that the delta in PERFORMANCE between us and Everton over 20 years is proportional to the delta in LEADERSHIP. This is a tough league and so you have to acknowledge that we have done well ON THE PITCH.
Also, net spending since Newcastle takeover:
20. Brighton – £69.16million (profit)
19. Manchester City – £42.84million (profit)
18. Leicester City – £30.58million (profit)
17. Everton – £9.05million (profit)
16. Leeds United – £37.7million
15. Brentford – £43.09million
14. Fulham – £43.86million
13. Crystal Palace – £47.79million
12. Aston Villa – £68.22million
11. Bournemouth – £81.09million
10. Liverpool – £88.04million
9. Wolves – £107.45million
8. Southampton – £121.93million
7. Woolwich – £151.88million
6. West Ham – £154.17million
5. Tottenham – £154.92million
4. Nottingham Forest – £163.17million
3. Manchester United – £198.66million
2. Newcastle – £254.8million
1. Chelsea – £482.64million
If you didn’t find that toxic, it’s hard to see what is toxic in this discussion.
Your points rely on biased sources (a recently sacked manager) or negative assumptions. It’s not unbiased.
But in any case, you can’t avoid the central issue with your argument. If you want to ascribe good luck a bigger role in good performance then you have to give bad luck a greater role in bad performance.
But again, you want to create a situation where good things are down to luck and bad things down to Levy. You’re really biased on this.
Lol so now nett spend counts , that was dismissed continually through the Poch and Redknapp years as irrelevant.
OK so in my opinion Newcastle are still yet to leverage Saudi muscle fully
Using your numbers above with a nett spend of 100 million more Newcastle have gone from relegation battlers to usurping in all likelihood a top 4 place. That is in one full season, whilst we are a project after 23 years
If you think Villa under Edens or Newcastle are a blip I must beg to differ
We’re split, so the answer is obvious:
Chop Daniel Levy in half.
This confirms what some of us have said before, that it's financial success over sporting.
Any success (which there isn't) would be by accident rather than design, and for the sixth biggest club in the country and 9th richest worldwide is underachievement.
I prefer to argue about strategy , football wise it’s largely shambolic with a stopped clock being right twice a day outcome
The strategy for improving their own wealth has been exemplary and coherent , the football side poor planning with an element of good fortune . We have had 3 good managers in ENIC’S tenure he fired them all
I agree they’ve yet to leverage their financial muscle fully. There’s a lot more to come from Newcastle. They’ll be like Man City - will be fascinating to watch them fight it out.
And we will never be able to consistently compete with either whilst they are owned by oil states and we are not.
Which of those 3 managers should still be in charge? Managers have a life cycle. Rather than praise their appointments (it’s all luck!) you criticise the fact they were ever sacked? What a strange critique.
You’re still not really engaging with the double standard at the core of your argument so let’s leave it there.