Management ENIC

[Ballyhack Spur]

OK. So let me clear this up. (This place is mad, lol)

If someone is relentlessly defending something that is indefensible, despite all the evidence laid out in front of them, then, in my humble opinion they are fanatical to the cause they are supporting. In this case ENIC.

We spend less of our revenue on our squad, not specifically but especially through player wages, which is undeniable and widely reported by every reasonable outlet.

This clearly means we are attracting a lower calibre of player than we otherwise could be. Or should be.

This is the way ENIC choose to operate . They don't have to. They choose to.

So. Anyone who spends day after day supporting this position and fighting back against fans who voice their frustration and who think it sucks, are, in my opinion, fanatical in their support for the OWNERS!

that's what i think. And that's where this ridiculous discussion, as far as I'm concerned, ends

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so scarletjim was right then? You were using fanatics in the derogatory term. Like it's a cult or something, not just a different point of view from yours.

 

[Shadydan]

so scarletjim was right then? You were using fanatics in the derogatory term. Like it's a cult or something, not just a different point of view from yours.

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Tripped himself up on his own bullshit

The irony is that for the first time in a while he was being genuine and not actively trolling yet he actually exposed himself, incredible.

 

[McCOYS]

Any chance you can promise to not ride into this thread like a white knight any time someone has a pop at John Thomas and his obvious trolling?

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I like John Thomas, and if I see this faction of forum members ganging up to harass him again, because they view his humour as trolling, or because he doesn't want to converse with them, I'll be here to ''call them out''.

 

[AberdeenYid]

I like John Thomas, and if I see this faction of forum members ganging up to harass him again, because they view his humour as trolling, or because he doesn't want to converse with them, I'll be here to ''call them out''.

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Fair enough. You’ve stated on here before that you don’t care what people think of you - and your continued defence of Trolly McTrollFace means that’s just as well.

 

[Muckleflugga]

A lot of this bickering is all down to Deloitte who never use to add wage/revenue ratios on to their money league table it's only a recent innovation even though the information has been freely available in financial accounts published each season at Companies House by every PL club. Did anybody worry about wage ratios when we signed Modric, Bale, Berbatov, Vertonghen, Eriksen, Dele, Sonny etc, shame on you Deloitte for causing all this agro

 

[McCOYS]

so scarletjim was right then? You were using fanatics in the derogatory term. Like it's a cult or something, not just a different point of view from yours.

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It's the same as saying ''Levy fan boys''.

No wonder he doesn't want to converse on here often, it's what happens on here, one's comments get twisted and turned. He didn't even allude to a cult, nor was he being derogatory.

 

[McCOYS]

Fair enough. You’ve stated on here before that you don’t care what people think of you - and your continued defence of Trolly McTrollFace means that’s just as well.

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Correct, I don't care what people post about me on here within reason, if I thought it got too personal I'd simply use the forum functions regarding the rules. Something that I haven't had to do so far.

 

[Honest John]

So..guys. Criticising the owners, or pushing back against those that fanatically defend them at every turn, is now viewed as 'trolling'

 

[Honest John]

It's the same as saying ''Levy fan boys''.

No wonder he doesn't want to converse on here often, it's what happens on here, one's comments get twisted and turned. He didn't even allude to a cult, nor was he being derogatory.

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A great example of this are the posters who take offence at the phrase "Levy Lovers" (even though I rarely, if ever use the phrase myself)

The next day, those very same people will randomly call me and others Levy ' Haters'

The hypocrisy shown by the 'Levy IN' minority is absolutely off the scale at times.

 

[White Van Jan]

Levy and ENIC have been fucking bipolar.

The strategy has been let’s have the dogs bollocks of an academy. Great.

That way we can develop talent for buttons. At the same time we take punts on “potential” from elsewhere.

OK, so far so wonderful.

But then let’s give the managers job to a succession of bods who didn't. give a shit about developing talent.

AVB. Poch. Mourinho. Conte.

Before you defend Poch, his record was pretty much Winks and that was it. And the academy is only starting to recover from the exodus under his bonkers tenure whereby if you were good that meant you definitely were NOT going to get loaned out to get experience. Boy that worked well!!

Redknapp was pretty good at promoting youth. And with Rose very good at seeing a champo at best player who would be far better in a different position.

Sherwood promoted youth with us and Villa.

Finally we have another manager with a proven track record in Developing talent and improving players. Only took 10 years.

 

[Brian Fantana]

Based on what though? Wages to Revenue doesn't mean there is money available. Revenue is subject to expenditure. That's the entire rebuttal of the thing.

"Revenue is the total income generated from sales, while profit is what remains after all expenses are deducted from the revenue"

How can we spend 20% more if we don't have that available? "4 or 5 players on £200k a week" is around £40m to £50m per year. We already had an overall loss of £83m in 2023 and £26.2m in 2024.

Bear in mind that the club, as an entity, is already in net debt to the tune of over £770m, so it isn't as simple as just "spend more money" because that has consequences on credit facilities that service that debt.

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Owner funding, which they refuse to do. They have the ability to put in £165m this window if they really want to as per the company articles of association.

 

[Honest John]

It's the same as saying ''Levy fan boys''.

No wonder he doesn't want to converse on here often, it's what happens on here, one's comments get twisted and turned. He didn't even allude to a cult, nor was he being derogatory.

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It's quite pathetic isn't it.

 

[scarletjim]

A great example of this are the posters who take offence at the phrase "Levy Lovers" (even though I rarely, if ever use the phrase myself)

The next day, those very same people will randomly call me and others Levy ' Haters'

The hypocrisy shown by the 'Levy IN' minority is absolutely off the scale at times.

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I think the explanation of that one is as follows:

Presumably you do hate Levy, and openly admit it, is that right?

On the other hand, the very vast majority of those who defend Levy have mixed feelings on him - you won't find a single one who has nothing bad to say about Levy (if you do have someone, link them here, see if they agree). If there were genuine 'Levy-lovers' surely they would proudly proclaim it, just as you are proud to be a Levy-hater.

So whilst you are genuinely a 'Levy-hater' (and proud of it - nothing wrong with that,totally your prerogative) there are no 'Levy-lovers', just 'Levy-ambivalents' or 'Levy-is-positive-on-balance' posters - I think that's why people get annoyed by that phrase - you are at one extreme and fanatical end of the spectrum, so claim them to be at the other extreme and fanatical end, but they simply aren't.

 

[Honest John]

But relentlessly repeating anti ENIC opinions is not fanatical? I am not pro ENIC but cringe when I see you or another poster keep showing the table of 2023/24 season wages to revenue table. As I have also said before any employee is more interested in actual wages rather than this ratio. The table showing total wages is different and whilst showing us in 7th place which is maybe too low it Is more realistic than bottom.
The table was for a year when we were not in Europe meaning fewer match day bonuses.

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I've been labelled a 'Levy out fanatic' many a time mate

It honestly doesn't bother me. I probably am fanatical in my opinion of the owners just as some of the more extreme Levy IN posters are in theirs.

The irony is, the people crying over my use of the term are the very people who use similar terminology to describe me.


Edit: I said I was checking out of this childish debate a couple of pages ago and I'm still here.

I'm extremely disappointed with my lack of self restraint. Must do better

 

[scarletjim]

I've been labelled a 'Levy out fanatic' many a time mate

It honestly doesn't bother me. I probably am fanatical in my opinion of the owners just as some of the more extreme Levy IN posters are in theirs.

The irony is, the people crying over my use of the term are the very people who use similar terminology to describe me.

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Please see my post immediately above yours to explain the difference.

Btw, I don't think there is anything wrong with being a fanatic about something, in fact I admire it in some ways. It's just that those 'on the other side' are simply not fanatics (in that sense) - they get involved in all sorts of other conversations all over the forum, ignoring ENIC / Levy in those conversations. Tbh I doubt it's the actual word that annoys people, it's probably more the implication that they think the owners never do anything wrong, which annoys people because I bet every single person on here has been critical of the owners in some way or other. Many people just want an honest discussion, recognising both the good and bad that the owners have done, without all the hyperbole and misleading data. If we could only somehow do away with all of that, then we could all have a really good honest conversation about where we differ.

Your comments on the last page about revenue / wages would be a good starting point, and that table often does lead to a useful discussion (by people more knowledgeable than me I might add...), but it is so often derailed by all the nonsense of the last few pages.

 

[CJJ]

Owner funding, which they refuse to do. They have the ability to put in £165m this window if they really want to as per the company articles of association.

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Who is 'they', though?

All ENIC do is own the tottenham shares. There have been no dividends from the club, and ENIC Group is listed as a dormant company that has no transactions. As such, Daniel Levy has absolutely no ability to invest any capital into the club. That's pretty much been his limitation from day 0. Only Collecott and Levy are directors of ENIC.

Tavistock/Joe Lewis & Family? Yes, they probably could. In reality, that's where people should be directing any valid criticisms. I don't personally see how the topic of funding has any real validity with the 'ENIC' or 'Levy' concept any more than saying that literally any of the club's 20 owners could put their own cash in and push on. The limit on those like Benham or Bloom would be that they aren't billionaires - but neither are Levy or ENIC. So it feels like a hugely misdirected criticism.

The problem is that people think it is somehow the antithesis of the 'enic out' crowd to hold this position or, to use some of the more antagonist terms "levy loving", but it really isn't - it is just a shrug of the shoulders like "what is DL supposed to do?". The apathy is from the ultimate ownership which is about ENIC - who may as well be renamed 'Tottenham Hotspur Holding Account Ltd'.

It seems to be that the criticism is like some kind of scorned soon-to-be wife that is absolutely convinced there is money squirrelled away that could and should be used - but the gap between wages and revenue isn't spare money, the gap between the FFP limit and what the club has spent is not spare money, and the holding company haven't received any profit from the club in 25 years so there's no money there either - we've always seemingly spent the cash we've generated and there's so much evidence of that it doesn't really warrant analysis.

It could well be that some cash is coming in from Joe's daughter or something like that - who knows - but it seems like people who want to get frothy mouths could just post in the below thread and be left to it with, no doubt, little resistence:

Management - Joe Lewis out

Do you think he'd be up for a house swap? I've got two bedrooms and a downstairs loo, and the upstairs landing is so small, the bathroom can be classified as en-suite 🤞 Iv been meaning to ask Mrs P,being Maltese have you got any Italian blood? A lot of ur compatriots do

thefightingcock.co.uk

 

[FightingIllini]

Were you happier 16 months ago when the wage:revenue ratio was higher because we had Ndombele, Dier, Royal, Sessegnon, and constantly injured Perisic clogging up the wage bill?

I get that we need to spend more on players, but those that are leading the wage:revenue militia are the same ones that crowed for years about clearing out the deadwood.

Part of that was a natural wage reduction. It'd be silly to clear out the deadwood and then ramp up spending just to get to a 60% ratio and leave ourselves with little room to maneuver when VDV, Bergvall, etc. need new deals to see off foreign interests.

We're in the 2014-15 phase with this squad. Young, talented, incomplete. Need some additions, yes, but also need the room in the wage budget to keep increasing salaries (as we did with Kane, Son, Lloris, etc.) so we hold on to our best as they (hopefully) continue to improve.

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I was 4% happier 16 months ago when the wage/turnover ratio was 4% higher and still dead last in Deloitte's figures, as we have been every time they have been released.

I may die of joy if we're ever second-to-last.

 

[Deuterz]

Who is 'they', though?

All ENIC do is own the tottenham shares. There have been no dividends from the club, and ENIC Group is listed as a dormant company that has no transactions. As such, Daniel Levy has absolutely no ability to invest any capital into the club. That's pretty much been his limitation from day 0. Only Collecott and Levy are directors of ENIC.

Tavistock/Joe Lewis & Family? Yes, they probably could. In reality, that's where people should be directing any valid criticisms. I don't personally see how the topic of funding has any real validity with the 'ENIC' or 'Levy' concept any more than saying that literally any of the club's 20 owners could put their own cash in and push on. The limit on those like Benham or Bloom would be that they aren't billionaires - but neither are Levy or ENIC. So it feels like a hugely misdirected criticism.

The problem is that people think it is somehow the antithesis of the 'enic out' crowd to hold this position or, to use some of the more antagonist terms "levy loving", but it really isn't - it is just a shrug of the shoulders like "what is DL supposed to do?". The apathy is from the ultimate ownership which is about ENIC - who may as well be renamed 'Tottenham Hotspur Holding Account Ltd'.

It seems to be that the criticism is like some kind of scorned soon-to-be wife that is absolutely convinced there is money squirrelled away that could and should be used - but the gap between wages and revenue isn't spare money, the gap between the FFP limit and what the club has spent is not spare money, and the holding company haven't received any profit from the club in 25 years so there's no money there either - we've always seemingly spent the cash we've generated and there's so much evidence of that it doesn't really warrant analysis.

It could well be that some cash is coming in from Joe's daughter or something like that - who knows - but it seems like people who want to get frothy mouths could just post in the below thread and be left to it with, no doubt, little resistence:

Management - Joe Lewis out

Do you think he'd be up for a house swap? I've got two bedrooms and a downstairs loo, and the upstairs landing is so small, the bathroom can be classified as en-suite 🤞 Iv been meaning to ask Mrs P,being Maltese have you got any Italian blood? A lot of ur compatriots do

thefightingcock.co.uk

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The bottom line is they can’t get us to where the fans want and won’t. So they need to sell to someone who can. We have loads of PSR wriggle room and huge potential. This lot have zero ambition beyond our current state and the fans are hungry to make the next step.

All the rest is just noise. It’s ambitious fans vs content with status quo fans. We will never be more than this under ENIC with the recent boom of more ambitious clubs.

 

[dudu]

It's the same as saying ''Levy fan boys''.

No wonder he doesn't want to converse on here often, it's what happens on here, one's comments get twisted and turned. He didn't even allude to a cult, nor was he being derogatory.

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You're either his multi or he has some dirt on you.

You are defending one of, if not the biggest, trolls on here, who is consistently insulting and derogatory of anyone who disagrees with him.

He knows what he was saying - he has said it shamelessly many times before - the guy is a mispelt cult of the highest order - because no one on here defends Levy - they simply refuse to blindly accept HIS position on him.

That isn't a defence, that is simply a differing of opinion.

Ha ha!!! Are you fucking serious. . I guess you must be new to the place

There's a whole fucking cult of them on here

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It's a cult mate. Pure and simple. A cult devoted to diminutive, ruthless extremely wealthy businessman who doesn't even know they exist

Freaky as fuck, man

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[CJJ]

The bottom line is they can’t get us to where the fans want and won’t. So they need to sell to someone who can. We have loads of PSR wriggle room and huge potential. This lot have zero ambition beyond our current state and the fans are hungry to make the next step.

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They aren't refusing to sell the club - the "someone who can" either hasn't put themselves forward and/or does not exist.

In a world where pumping money into a club is by no means a new or unique idea, I think it is quite naive to assume that it is purely a matter of funding that is preventing progress.

All the rest is just noise. It’s ambitious fans vs content with status quo fans. We will never be more than this under ENIC with the recent boom of more ambitious clubs.

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It is also quite insulting to claim some moral high ground and say that to want to get rid of the current admin is "ambitious".

Compare where we were in 2001 to now and I'd say that it is completely justified to say there has been a rather consistent growth pattern to support that it is valid ambition, rather than 'status quo', to want to retain the same staff and just have some additional investment.