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Management ENIC

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ENIC In or ENIC Out

  • Total voters
    209
LeParisien said:
It’s disingenuous to say ENIC have only ever had two objectives in 22 years. Ignorance does not imply absence.

We were shit under sugar. But that doesn’t mean you get to ignore any other relevant contextual factors. On your analysis, the changes that occurred in the game with the formation of the PL and the entrance of state-backed owners are entirely irrelevant to the level of competition in the league. Both have been absolutely massive.
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The state backed clubs arrived after ENIC arrived at Spurs. One such owner enquired with ENIC about buying Spurs.

Disingenuous is literally being insincere.

How the fuck can you accuse me of that but defend ENIC and Levy's 22 year regime?

If that phrase ever applied to anyone it is Daniel fucking Levy.

I invite you again to produce any evidence that backs up any trophy winning ambition publicly stated by Levy or ENIC?

Spurs need win now owners; not a project manager.

Daniel Levy and ENIC need to shit or get off the pot.
 
Kosher Kid said:
The state backed clubs arrived after ENIC arrived at Spurs. One such owner enquired with ENIC about buying Spurs.

Disingenuous is literally being insincere.

How the fuck can you accuse me of that but defend ENIC and Levy's 22 year regime?

If that phrase ever applied to anyone it is Daniel fucking Levy.

I invite you again to produce any evidence that backs up any trophy winning ambition publicly stated by Levy or ENIC?

Spurs need win now owners; not a project manager.

Daniel Levy and ENIC need to shit or get off the pot.
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You didn’t deal with my argument. You picked a small component and moved on.

One of the frustrating things in this discussion is that I am not defending Levy. I am working from facts and evidence and trying to draw conclusions from that.

Most people in this thread are starting with « positions » but there is no way to dissolve differences if our basic framing is Team A and Team B. I don’t know whether this is accidental or by design.

You can’t just act incredulously that someone else holds a different position to you. You have to examine the facts and evidence, look for points of agreement and analyse the points of disagreement.

If you’re not willing to join that process with me then what’s the point?
 
LeParisien said:
You didn’t deal with my argument. You picked a small component and moved on.

One of the frustrating things in this discussion is that I am not defending Levy. I am working from facts and evidence and trying to draw conclusions from that.

Most people in this thread are starting with « positions » but there is no way to dissolve differences if our basic framing is Team A and Team B. I don’t know whether this is accidental or by design.

You can’t just act incredulously that someone else holds a different position to you. You have to examine the facts and evidence, look for points of agreement and analyse the points of disagreement.

If you’re not willing to join that process with me then what’s the point?
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Bollocks.

You were sexing up the Champions League qualifications under ENIC, by juxtaposing them against Spurs failure to play in the Champions Cup, during a period when only the league winners qualified for the competition.

You then suggested that I was being disingenuous when I pointed out that ENIC and Daniel Levy have never stated publicly any aim to win trophies or a time frame that was reasonable for Spurs supporters to expect us to win something.

ENIC bought a trophy winning club.

The greedy cunts have turned us into an entertainment complex.

You're now looking for a way out of this argument because you're making yourself look a cunt.
 
Kosher Kid said:
Bollocks.

You were sexing up the Champions League qualifications under ENIC, by juxtaposing them against Spurs failure to play in the Champions Cup, during a period when only the league winners qualified for the competition.

You then suggested that I was being disingenuous when I pointed out that ENIC and Daniel Levy have never stated publicly any aim to win trophies or a time frame that was reasonable for Spurs supporters to expect us to win something.

ENIC bought a trophy winning club.

The greedy cunts have turned us into an entertainment complex.

You're now looking for a way out of this argument because you're making yourself look a cunt.
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Deuterz Deuterz - any comment to make on the difference in tone in this particular exchange with Kosher Kid Kosher Kid ?

As for the substance…

I’ve been really clear that it is fair and reasonable to say you can’t make fair comparisons between champions league qualification over decades because the context has changed. I’ve said that unambiguously.

What I haven’t said is that regardless of those changed rules, we weren’t in CL competition for a very long time after the rule changes and it’s only under ENIC that we managed to qualify regularly. That speaks to the increase in league performance since around 2008. I also evidenced this with a graph clearly showing that trend.

However what I’ve also said to you is that you cannot include contextual factors which suit your argument (change in rules around European qualification) and ignore others which don’t (formation of PL, stratification of wealth and resources, state-backed owners). I am accepting ALL these contextual factors as being relevant. You are emphasising some and ignoring others.

You see the difference?
 
LeParisien said:
Deuterz Deuterz - any comment to make on the difference in tone in this particular exchange with Kosher Kid Kosher Kid ?

As for the substance…

I’ve been really clear that it is fair and reasonable to say you can’t make fair comparisons between champions league qualification over decades because the context has changed. I’ve said that unambiguously.

What I haven’t said is that regardless of those changed rules, we weren’t in CL competition for a very long time after the rule changes and it’s only under ENIC that we managed to qualify regularly. That speaks to the increase in league performance since around 2008. I also evidenced this with a graph clearly showing that trend.

However what I’ve also said to you is that you cannot include contextual factors which suit your argument (change in rules around European qualification) and ignore others which don’t (formation of PL, stratification of wealth and resources, state-backed owners). I am accepting ALL these contextual factors as being relevant. You are emphasising some and ignoring others.

You see the difference?
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LeParisien said:
We have never competed with europes elite in the Champions League as consistently as we have done under ENIC. European competition has not been the norm in our history but it is now.
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This was your statement.

European competition was the norm at Spurs until English clubs were banned and Sugar's regime.

When English clubs were allowed back into Europe Spurs were there in the 91 / 92 Cup Winners Cup. They reached the quarter final and were knocked out by Feyenoord.

I was there.

Anyone else who was should look at this;
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The Champions League, when compared to the previous European formats, has more in common with the old UEFA Cup than it does with the old Champions Cup.

Spurs had won the old UEFA Cup twice, lost one UEFA Cup final and one UEFA Cup semi final before ENIC arrived.

They had also won one Cup Winners Cup and lost a CWC semi final.

Spurs had a proud European and domestic cup history before ENIC.

Your assertion is.........disingenuous.

In my opinion.
 
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Do you guys not get bored going around in circles like this?

It genuinely feels like this has turned into a political debate and it isn't even about Levy or the ownership anymore, it's more about "I dislike this person and they are on this side so by default I am on the other side"

I don't have to explain how simple minded and childish that is to a bunch of grown adults do I?

It's arguments now based on ignorance and judgement of the people making statements rather than judging the context and content of the arguments.

You have people here from both sides twisting the narrative to fit their agenda and a refusal to back down from their position and just flinging pathetic insults at others trying to score points.

I personally fail to see how anybody can defend Levy on the football side of issues at present and I have been guilty myself of flinging insults in the past after a bad result, I get it, we're only human.

But for this to go on every fucking day like this round and round is just sad now, take a step away and save yourselves the headache of it all, nobody is changing any perspectives when people are unwilling to compromise on their positions even when presented with evidence. (on both sides.)
 
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Incomplete_usernam said:
Do you guys not get bored going around in circles like this?

It genuinely feels like this has turned into a political debate and it isn't even about Levy or the ownership anymore, it's more about "I dislike this person and they are on this side so by default I am on the other side"

I don't have to explain how simple minded and childish that is to a bunch of grown adults do I?

It's arguments now based on ignorance and judgement of the people making statements rather than judging the context and content of the arguments.

You have people here from both sides twisting the narrative to fit their agenda and a refusal to back down from their position and just flinging pathetic insults at others trying to score points.

I personally fail to see how anybody can defend Levy on the football side of issues at present and I have been guilty myself of flinging insults in the past after a bad result, I get it, we're only human.

But for this to go on every fucking day like this round and round is just sad now, take a step away and save yourselves the headache of it all, nobody is changing any perspectives when people are unwilling to compromise on their positions even when presented with evidence. (on both sides.)
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The model is broken. We will continue to go round in circles till they leave or Levy steps down. Club is more stale than 3 month old milk.
 
BernardMatthews said:
He’s probably going to turn an investment from ENIC of less than £100m into £3b +.

Incredible piece of business in an industry where football clubs regularly fail.
Don’t think anybody can doubt his business acumen. He’s made money for himself and plenty of others and has an incredible stadium as a legacy.

Unfortunately since 2018 his football decision making has more often been wrong than right.

Huge summer and season coming up.

In terms of young talent coming through I think this has to be one of the worst group of players since ENIC arrived.
And I think a lot if that can be attributed to the short term thinking of appointing Mourinho and Conte.

Flip side of having that young world class talent is ultimately you have to sell them…….
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This is a very well balanced post & pretty much nails it imho.

Poch played good football overachieved in the league & got us to a Champs league final so everybody was happy.

Expectations were raised.

Mourinho came in & played dull football

Mourinho finished 6th was sacked before the end of the season & got us to a cup final.

Very underwhelming after Poch but an acceptable level if you are not expecting to overachieve every season.

Conte got us back to top 4 (his main objective tbf ) & a cup semi.
He Imploded this season but we were still sat in 4th when he left.

The problem tbh was not so much that Mourinho & Conte underachieved, more that the football was horrible and they were understandably compared to Poch who overachieved and they couldn't do the same.

Fact is as a club,all things being equal (which we unfortunately know not to be the case in football) we should probably finish somewhere between 4th and 8th most seasons.
So 6th is probably average.

Unfortunately now Newcastle have massive money things have become even harder.

Man U, Liverpool, Woolwich have always been far more successful. FACT

Post Enic Chelsea, Man City & now Newcastle all have obscene money to compete so finishing top 6 is very tough. FACT

I understand that's not want people want to hear but it's simply the truth.


Because Poch took us higher playing great football it meant expectations were raised.

It certainly doesn't mean we should expect or feel entitled to finish top 4 every season.
 
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le grand coq said:
This is a very well balanced post & pretty much nails it imho.

Poch played good football overachieved in the league & got us to a Champs league final so everybody was happy.

Expectations were raised.

Mourinho came in & played dull football

Mourinho finished 6th was sacked before the end of the season & got us to a cup final.
Very underwhelming after Poch but I suppose an acceptable level if you are not expecting to overachieve every season

Conte got us back to top 4 (his main objective tbf ) & a cup semi.
He Imploded this season but we were still sat in 4th when he left.

The problem was not so much that Mourinho & Conte underachieved, more that the football was horrible and they were understandably compared to Poch who overachieved and they couldn't do the same.

Fact is as a club,all things being equal (which we unfortunately know not to be the case in football) we should probably finish between 4th and 8th most seasons.

Because Poch took us higher playing great football expectations were raised.
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And there was me thinking that Levy broke up Poch's team by under paying a few and paying others three times more, selling Walker & Dembele, before eventually sacking Poch.
 
Incomplete_usernam said:
Do you guys not get bored going around in circles like this?

It genuinely feels like this has turned into a political debate and it isn't even about Levy or the ownership anymore, it's more about "I dislike this person and they are on this side so by default I am on the other side"

I don't have to explain how simple minded and childish that is to a bunch of grown adults do I?

It's arguments now based on ignorance and judgement of the people making statements rather than judging the context and content of the arguments.

You have people here from both sides twisting the narrative to fit their agenda and a refusal to back down from their position and just flinging pathetic insults at others trying to score points.

I personally fail to see how anybody can defend Levy on the football side of issues at present and I have been guilty myself of flinging insults in the past after a bad result, I get it, we're only human.

But for this to go on every fucking day like this round and round is just sad now, take a step away and save yourselves the headache of it all, nobody is changing any perspectives when people are unwilling to compromise on their positions even when presented with evidence. (on both sides.)
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I think you’re basically right.

Not really sure the bold is right though - it’s not both sides. There’s a stark difference in rhetoric. One side uses evidence and facts and the other speaks to entrenched positions.
 
Poch signing official, Levy is lucky this isn't a home game.

The board really need to be right on the next managerial appointment.

Distancing themselves from Nagelsmann was the strangest thing.

Now it's Luis Enrique or someone the fans have hardly heard of and will see as Nuno II.
 
LeParisien said:
I think you’re basically right.

Not really sure the bold is right though - it’s not both sides. There’s a stark difference in rhetoric. One side uses evidence and facts and the other speaks to entrenched positions.
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There really isn't, your bias is blinding you I am afraid.

Both sides have come up with great factual arguments at times and those are appreciated.

But to suggest that the side that wants Levy in is always coming from a place of pure factual evidence is simply incorrect.

This is why I say this debate isn't about facts anymore, it's about sides, it shares a lot in common with left vs right politics and Brexit etc.

So, I am Levy out, do you believe I speak to entrenched positions when I say that I think Levy has done a fantastic job on the business side but I no longer trust his judgement when it comes to footballing decisions and he needs to step aside for the good of the football club?

Because my decision making process is based on the evidence of decline that I am seeing at the football club.
 
I see that ardilles confirmed that the phone call never came for poch, after the stadium sang his name. Wtf not even a courtesy call to politely tell him we are going in another direction?

www.spurs-web.com

Ossie Ardiles reveals what Mauricio Pochettino's stance was over Spurs return

Tottenham Hotspur legend Ossie Ardiles been speaking to fans at a Spurs supporter event this weekend and revealed exactly why Mauricio Pochettino chose to join...
www.spurs-web.com www.spurs-web.com

And now confirmed signed for Chelsea.

Backhand, disrespectful way of working and I wish poch all the best (despite being reduced to Chelsea as his premier league option)
 
LeParisien said:
I think you’re basically right.

Not really sure the bold is right though - it’s not both sides. There’s a stark difference in rhetoric. One side uses evidence and facts and the other speaks to entrenched positions.
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alaz5bBp_700w_0.jpg
 
Kosher Kid said:
And there was me thinking that Levy broke up Poch's team by under paying a few and paying others three times more, selling Walker & Dembele, before eventually sacking Poch.
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I'm not disputing poor decisions were made.

I'm simply looking at the whole picture & how football has evolved.

We still maintained a decent league position. FACT

Everton a similar sized club to us have not even made top 10 since Carlo. They are in danger of relegation ffs. They have a genuine reason to cry.


I agree we are in a slump but in the grand scheme of things it's not anywhere near as horrendous as people on here make out.

Sure it's disappointing but get a grip & some genuine perspective ffs 🙄.
 
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