Management ENIC

[manmountainbutters]

From my experience of Banking Covenants which is about 30 years out of date, they normally constrain borrowing/money owing which would include Loans from owners and/or buying players in instalments. We owe a lot to other clubs for existing players and probably have little wriggle room to increase it significantly. It needs investment from ENIC or a minority investor. The covenants are probably more sophistic nowadays and if the club break them the interest rate on our stadium debt loans goes up or the debts become fully payable. this is not a minor issue.

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I know. My work involves them occasionally. But what I'm saying is not that we aren't subject to covenants, but that Jordan throws them out as a "you're all wrong" point in response to the complaints Spurs fans have about our stingy wage bill. It's not evidently true at all that we are maxing out our potential "sustainable" cost base to achieve success on the field. And in the absence of evidence (rather than taking Daniel's word for it, and the accounts, which only tell part of the story) it feels as if our high and in large part secure revenue, very low interest debt, and very low wage/revenue ratio are more to the benefit of the owners than they are an inescapable financial constraint.

Ultimately the question is the extent to which you believe Levy would risk some of his asset value for greater success on the pitch. I think the evidence is he doesn't want to go there. Likes the 4-5 place ROI sweetspot, as he sees it.

 

[Kevin Ball]

I would say that even if it is true that he "low balled" for Vlahovic (which I think it's pure internet fiction), I think we've actually been proven correct. He's not at all looked like a £70m+ striker.

Solanke just scored 16 goals in a very shit Ange team for us. That's 1 more than Vlahovic had this season gone, and just two less than Vlahovic's best Juventus haul.

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Really - So by you're reckoning Levy offered the £70mil required to land Vlahovic , but Vlahovic decided to go to Juventus rather than play in PL . The fact that he's right by accident doesn't make him right for low balling in the first place . Levy has been the reason we're not challenging for the league . He brought in Poch , who was extremely lucky to inherit a great squad of youngsters , and went on to challenge for the league and took us to Final of CL . So what did Levy do with the extra £178mil CL money ??
He went 3 transfer windows without buying a single player . Now with investment like that , what chance have us supporters got of winning the league .

 

[CJJ]

Really - So by you're reckoning Levy offered the £70mil required to land Vlahovic , but Vlahovic decided to go to Juventus rather than play in PL .

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Ummm yes?
"How would you like to be Juventus's main Striker? Or Harry Kane's backup? "

So what did Levy do with the extra £178mil CL money ??
He went 3 transfer windows without buying a single player . Now with investment like that , what chance have us supporters got of winning the league .

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It wasn't 3 windows at all. People keep inventing that. How about Poch turned down a bunch of players because wanted Ndombele. I don't know why we have to revisit the same old stomping ground - it's getting close to 10 years ago

 

[Shadydan]

The outliers are the ones that are accurate to the statement.

The correlation tends to be that the Top 6 are usually finishing in the Top 6, and pay the Top 6 of money. But that's incredibly lazy when the argument is thrown around, because it is actually used to stress than 6th highest paid Tottenham are not challenging for the title (or getting top 4).

There have been only two distinct teams to have won the PL in the last 8 seasons. 6 were Man City, and 2 were Liverpool.
Both times Liverpool won the title they were 5th in the 'wages' table.
The 2nd place Woolwich finishes of 22/23, 23/24, and 24/25 saw them 6th, 3rd, and 4th

Season	Champions	Runner-up	Third Place	Fourth Place
24/25	Liverpool [5th]	Woolwich [4th]	Man City [1st]	Chelsea [3rd]
23/24	Man City [2nd]	Woolwich [3rd]	Liverpool [5th]	Aston Villa [7th]
22/23	Man City [2nd]	Woolwich [6th]	Man Utd [1st]	Newcastle [9th]
21/22	Man City [3rd]	Liverpool [4th]	Chelsea [2nd]	Tottenham [6th]
20/21	Man City [4th]	Man Utd [1st]	Liverpool [6th]	Chelsea [2nd]
19/20	Liverpool [5th]	Man City [2nd]	Man Utd [1st]	Chelsea [3rd]

So, on a really high level look at the "top four" over the last 6 PL seasons

• The highest salary budget has not won the league
• The second highest budget has only actually finished 2nd once
• The third highest has not finshed 3rd
• The fourth highest has not finished 4th

Out of 24 finishing spots over 6 seasons:

• it has only been predictive with regards to the salary table for 1 out of 24 finishing spots.
• Every title winner has over-achieved with respect to the salary table
• 15 out of the 24 finishing spots have "over-achieved" with respect to their salary ranking
• 8 out of the 24 have been clubs that have had a salary outside of a 'top 4' salary, including 2 of the title winners and 1 of the runners up
• The 3rd highest salary payers have only finished in the top 4 in 4 out of 6 seasons (66%), and the 4th highest only in 3 of the 6 (50%)

So highest statistical odds there to win the title are to have 2nd or 5th highest wage budget

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The majority of these clubs barely have a a big wage differential between them.

I think on average we have paid the 6th highest salary in the league over this time and the differential between us and the teams above us is way bigger than the teams below us.

For example this season there's £600k weekly wage difference between City (1st) and Woolwich (4th) we are £1.2m per week behind 4th, that's the issue I think - we are lagging behind our rivals and by a huge distance and actually far closer to the likes of Newcastle, Villa and West Ham.

I think the closest we've been to 1st (Utd) was in 2019/20 which was still a gap of £1.1m a week, still a significant gap between us and the top team, we haven't done anything to close the gap since then.

 

[CJJ]

The majority of these clubs barely have a a big wage differential between them.

I think on average we have paid the 6th highest salary in the league over this time and the differential between us and the teams above us is way bigger than the teams below us.

For example this season there's £600k weekly wage difference between City (1st) and Woolwich (4th) we are £1.2m per week behind 4th, that's the issue I think - we are lagging behind our rivals and by a huge distance and actually far closer to the likes of Newcastle, Villa and West Ham.

I think the closest we've been to 1st (Utd) was in 2019/20 which was still a gap of £1.1m a week, still a significant gap between us and the top team, we haven't done anything to close the gap since then.

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Problem is: it isn't the problem. It is a 'red herring' to distract people from the fact that we lacked belief in the past.

If you consider how close we have come to the title (in the Chelsea Conte season), have been 90 mins away from a CL win, and have been in at least two other finals and missed out, it's really a nothing burger for salary to be a thing.
Can we win the league with 6th highest overall salary? Well, Liverpool have done it twice with 5th highest, so it's not that big of a deal. Barely much between ours and theirs.

If we did win a CL, a PL, and still lost the league cup finals, would people even bring up the wage bill? Yes, they'd probably use it to moan about something else, but our proximity to titles is more to do with the loser mentallity baked in by Harry and Poch - who did amazing things for us, but really started the "Tottenham don't win things" shtick.

 

[Kevin Ball]

Ummm yes?
"How would you like to be Juventus's main Striker? Or Harry Kane's backup? "



It wasn't 3 windows at all. People keep inventing that. How about Poch turned down a bunch of players because wanted Ndombele. I don't know why we have to revisit the same old stomping ground - it's getting close to 10 years ago

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Harry Kane was at our place when Vlahovic went to Juventus , and Vlahovic would have relished playing alongside HK . We didn't buy a player for 3 windows - That's a fact not some old wives tale . The idea that he turned down players is Laughable . He wanted some top class players and was told no . You keep loving the guy , but until he changes his business approach/model we'll never win the league - which is what every supporter wants . We should buy better players , and pay better wages , there's no excuse we have the money , It's Levy's attitude that needs to change .

 

[FightingIllini]

I mean, never ever is a bit far

Davinson Sanchez, Ndombele (200k a week as well as record transfer fee) , GLC, all pretty expensive players that were the wrong players that whoever was making the decisions to buy them was seduced by someone or something to invest.

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When the new stadium revenue started flowing, our capacity in the transfer market increased with it, though still lagging behind all competitors on a ratio to turnover basis as the numbers have continued to demonstrate. And still within the straightjacket of a mentality that looks at players as a portfolio of liabilities to be managed rather than first and foremost a football team.

Managers and recruitment chiefs are brought to the club in order to extract maximum points out of a player portfolio built on deals and swindles and angles to be "smarter than the market".

All tactics and no strategy.

But had we invested what we did in Ndombele on the right player, then that would have been a lot of money invested in one player - more than a club like Liverpool was signing anyone for at the time

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Ndombele was a big outlay and a sincere attempt to add a prime age elite player to replace what Dembele had done for us, there's no denying any of that. The failures of the Levy regime are at the margin, it's not as if we totally eschew player purchases (except for when we did).

But just to be accurate, Liverpool bought a goalkeeper for the same price as Ndombele that same summer, and had paid well more than that to activate Virgil Van Dijk's release clause on the first day of the January window the year before.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I am pretty sure that since the Sheikh's takeover of Man City, Spurs have at every point retained the lowest club record transfer of the entire "Big Six"

 

[Shadydan]

Problem is: it isn't the problem. It is a 'red herring' to distract people from the fact that we lacked belief in the past.

If you consider how close we have come to the title (in the Chelsea Conte season), have been 90 mins away from a CL win, and have been in at least two other finals and missed out, it's really a nothing burger for salary to be a thing.
Can we win the league with 6th highest overall salary? Well, Liverpool have done it twice with 5th highest, so it's not that big of a deal. Barely much between ours and theirs.

If we did win a CL, a PL, and still lost the league cup finals, would people even bring up the wage bill? Yes, they'd probably use it to moan about something else, but our proximity to titles is more to do with the loser mentallity baked in by Harry and Poch - who did amazing things for us, but really started the "Tottenham don't win things" shtick.

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This is the actual point though isn't it? I don't think wages are the be all and end all but they are definitely a factor as to why we haven't pushed on and a factor due to the way the board have ran the club.

The two things go hand in hand, you can pay less than your rivals if your strategy is watertight like Liverpool's, Liverpool had (at least until now) taken a money ball approach to recruitment like us however they have rarely altered away from their strategy nor have they chopped and changed their process or managers every other season.

So essential you're right the wage thing may be another thing fans moan about without looking into the numbers but then again if we paid more and hence recruited more quality I don't think we'd have as much near misses as we have had, it's all relative.

 

[PatagoniaPhil]

The outliers are the ones that are accurate to the statement.

The correlation tends to be that the Top 6 are usually finishing in the Top 6, and pay the Top 6 of money. But that's incredibly lazy when the argument is thrown around, because it is actually used to stress than 6th highest paid Tottenham are not challenging for the title (or getting top 4).

There have been only two distinct teams to have won the PL in the last 8 seasons. 6 were Man City, and 2 were Liverpool.
Both times Liverpool won the title they were 5th in the 'wages' table.
The 2nd place Woolwich finishes of 22/23, 23/24, and 24/25 saw them 6th, 3rd, and 4th

Season	Champions	Runner-up	Third Place	Fourth Place
24/25	Liverpool [5th]	Woolwich [4th]	Man City [1st]	Chelsea [3rd]
23/24	Man City [2nd]	Woolwich [3rd]	Liverpool [5th]	Aston Villa [7th]
22/23	Man City [2nd]	Woolwich [6th]	Man Utd [1st]	Newcastle [9th]
21/22	Man City [3rd]	Liverpool [4th]	Chelsea [2nd]	Tottenham [6th]
20/21	Man City [4th]	Man Utd [1st]	Liverpool [6th]	Chelsea [2nd]
19/20	Liverpool [5th]	Man City [2nd]	Man Utd [1st]	Chelsea [3rd]

So, on a really high level look at the "top four" over the last 6 PL seasons

• The highest salary budget has not won the league
• The second highest budget has only actually finished 2nd once
• The third highest has not finshed 3rd
• The fourth highest has not finished 4th

Out of 24 finishing spots over 6 seasons:

• it has only been predictive with regards to the salary table for 1 out of 24 finishing spots.
• Every title winner has over-achieved with respect to the salary table
• 15 out of the 24 finishing spots have "over-achieved" with respect to their salary ranking
• 8 out of the 24 have been clubs that have had a salary outside of a 'top 4' salary, including 2 of the title winners and 1 of the runners up
• The 3rd highest salary payers have only finished in the top 4 in 4 out of 6 seasons (66%), and the 4th highest only in 3 of the 6 (50%)

So highest statistical odds there to win the title are to have 2nd or 5th highest wage budget

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You are quoting numbers without interpretation and being pedantic.

United had the biggest wage bill more often than not during this time period. United are badly run.

In general, wages correlates to league finishes.

 

[Shadydan]

There are actual studies on this, wages have always been correlated with team performance.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23311886.2018.1457423

Identifying the Verticals and Metrics That Contribute to Sustained Success in High Performance Sport

For an organization to achieve long term & sustainable development, it must consider economic, environmental, cultural & social factors

www.beautifulgamegroup.com

 

[FightingIllini]

There are actual studies on this, wages have always been correlated with team performance.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23311886.2018.1457423

Identifying the Verticals and Metrics That Contribute to Sustained Success in High Performance Sport

For an organization to achieve long term & sustainable development, it must consider economic, environmental, cultural & social factors

www.beautifulgamegroup.com

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And the big thing that's always revealed is that wages are MORE correlated with team performance than transfer fee spend.

Which is very logical when you think of wages as reflecting the performance value of the player while transfer fees reflect the asset value of the player.

I wonder which one Daniel Levy has heavily leaned our resources towards?

 

[CJJ]

Harry Kane was at our place when Vlahovic went to Juventus , and Vlahovic would have relished playing alongside HK

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I'm sure it makes sense if you invent Vlahovic's dialogue in your head.

When have we ever, pretty much since Redknapp left, played 2 up front? We signed lots of strikers when Kane was here and I can count on one hand how many times they played with him. Crazy to think that someone in Italy would turn down Juventus for Spurs, not least at that time.

We didn't buy a player for 3 windows - That's a fact not some old wives tale .

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Davinson Sanchez, Foyth, Aurier, Llorente joined in August 2017 (Summer window 17/18)
Lucas Moura joined in January 2018 (Winter window 17/18)
We then had no major incomings in 18/19 (two windows)
Clarke and Ndombele joined in July 2019, with Sess a month later (Summer window 19/20)

So no, not a fact at all - an "old wives tale".

The idea that he turned down players is Laughable . He wanted some top class players and was told no .

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Care to give a reference for that?

We know that Poch turned down Tielemens to replace Mousa Dembele in the winter window of 18/19

"Pertinently, the report reveals that Tottenham directors wanted to sanction a loan deal with an option to buy clause but Pochettino wasn't convinced by Tielemans, paving the way for Leicester to clinch his signature."

Widely reported at the time.

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[CJJ]

There are actual studies on this, wages have always been correlated with team performance.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23311886.2018.1457423

Identifying the Verticals and Metrics That Contribute to Sustained Success in High Performance Sport

For an organization to achieve long term & sustainable development, it must consider economic, environmental, cultural & social factors

www.beautifulgamegroup.com

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Article title: "Wage expenditures and sporting success: An analysis of Norwegian and Swedish football 2010–2013"

"In Norweigian and Swedish football"

 

[CJJ]

You are quoting numbers without interpretation and being pedantic.

United had the biggest wage bill more often than not during this time period. United are badly run.

In general, wages correlates to league finishes.

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Show me how the actual numbers correlate then. There is interpretation - and at least mine has some data.

 

[Shadydan]

"In Norweigian and Swedish football"

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Come on don't let yourself down with these disingenuous responses, that's why I linked two articles - the other one is focused on the Premier League, you're more than welcome to read it and you don't even need to translate it from Norwegian or Swedish, happy reading

Identifying the Verticals and Metrics That Contribute to Sustained Success in High Performance Sport

For an organization to achieve long term & sustainable development, it must consider economic, environmental, cultural & social factors

www.beautifulgamegroup.com

Using results as an isolated outcome measure, however, ignores other critical components of the vision, mission, strategic plan and financial resources of each individual organization, that have been shown to contribute to sporting success. For example, in the EPL, research demonstrates that at club level, player salary spend is the most influential variable on winning a league match, with the statistical likelihood of the home team winning positively related to the home team’s increased expenditure on wages (Carmichael et al., 2011). An increase in the club wage bill relative to the EPL average is related to the increased likelihood of winning a match by 47%, yet the effect is diminished when the top five teams compete against each other (Cox, 2016). Subsequently, in leagues where competitive balance is not promoted through regulating financial structures, teams that are unable to increase expenditure relative to competing teams may identify achievement of promotion, avoidance of relegation, play-off appearances, cup rounds negotiated, number of live television broadcast appearances or qualification for continental competition as objective markers of success.

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[FightingIllini]

When have we ever, pretty much since Redknapp left, played 2 up front? We signed lots of strikers when Kane was here and I can count on one hand how many times they played with him. Crazy to think that someone in Italy would turn down Juventus for Spurs, not least at that time.

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To be clear, Spurs have not, but Conte had to imperious effect with Lukaku and Lautaro Martinez at Inter, and the theory with Vlahovic was to replicate that with him and Kane (with Sonny being the Alexis Sanchez role)

 

[CJJ]

Come on don't let yourself down with these disingenuous responses, that's why I linked two articles - the other one is focused on the Premier League, you're more than welcome to read it and you don't even need to translate it from Norwegian or Swedish, happy reading

Identifying the Verticals and Metrics That Contribute to Sustained Success in High Performance Sport

For an organization to achieve long term & sustainable development, it must consider economic, environmental, cultural & social factors

www.beautifulgamegroup.com

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I have read it. It even says there "yet the effect is diminished when the top five teams compete against each other " and talks about likelihood of winning the match - not league finishes.

It is a straw man to use some whole-league reference anyway - relative to the top 6, it is not a factor. There's not even a trend in the data.

 

[CJJ]

To be clear, Spurs have not, but Conte had to imperious effect with Lukaku and Lautaro Martinez at Inter, and the theory with Vlahovic was to replicate that with him and Kane (with Sonny being the Alexis Sanchez role)

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Sure - but we bought Richarlison that summer. If that was Conte's plan, he still didn't do it.

It doesn't make sense when people say "Levy wouldn't spend x million on player y" when we bought player z for x million. Like it's not at all possible that Conte-level players might not want to leave title winning teams, or that he might have chosen a different tact. The outcome is that it isn't money related because we still clearly spend it.

 

[spursmalc]

Success which I define as winning trophies although finishing 17th is a failure. Success is achieved by a number of things coming together. Money is clearly a major factor although Palace won the F A cup. Other factors are a successful Manager, a winning culture, a bit of luck but most importantly the players. A winning team needs exceptional players who can win a match on their own but team work is also important which is built up over a long period. Therefore chopping & changing Managers & players is never going to work. Fergie said that you should only change 2 players every year. We do far more.

Getting an exceptional player can come in various ways, through Academy like Kane, cheap young player like Dele & Erikson or paying out for a player at his peak. I cannot recall when we last bought an exceptional player at his peak, Keane? Defoe? It is important to reward players by increased salary when they clearly improve such as Kane & Bergvall.

We do not currently have an exceptional player that can win a match on his own. Romero as a world cup winner, but he cannot win a match on his own. Maddison is not at that level & Son no longer is. Bergvall might become one in time. Buying one will be expensive and the club have shown no signs of doing that. They do need to stop chopping & Changing Managers and buying too many players each season but spend more on only 2.

It is real wages that matter not this ratio. Clubs with lower wages to us ended up above us this year. However I think the players we have are adequately paid and we do not lose players because they go to other higher wage paying clubs but to buy an exceptional player will cost more wages but we paid Kane a high wage and so why not. But even if we paid the highest wages as MU are finding without the other factors it is doomed to failure.

 

[Shadydan]

I have read it. It even says there "yet the effect is diminished when the top five teams compete against each other " and talks about likelihood of winning the match - not league finishes.

It is a straw man to use some whole-league reference anyway - relative to the top 6, it is not a factor. There's not even a trend in the data.

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What the flying fook does that have to do with the points you've raised?

I hate to break it to you but the more matches you win, the higher you finish in the table hence why it's relative.

Yes, relative to the top 6...probably because the top 6 teams are normally the teams who compete for the league...