Management ENIC

[Deuterz]

They aren't refusing to sell the club - the "someone who can" either hasn't put themselves forward and/or does not exist.

In a world where pumping money into a club is by no means a new or unique idea, I think it is quite naive to assume that it is purely a matter of funding that is preventing progress.


It is also quite insulting to claim some moral high ground and say that to want to get rid of the current admin is "ambitious".

Compare where we were in 2001 to now and I'd say that it is completely justified to say there has been a rather consistent growth pattern to support that it is valid ambition, rather than 'status quo', to want to retain the same staff and just have some additional investment.

Click to shrink...

They are valuing it way above what it’s actually worth and nobody is going to pay it.

Uh, investment + wage bill increase in particular is intrinsically linked to higher finishes. No reason to think we wouldn’t compete if we skyrocketed our spending.

Of course it is. The current admin has kept us at best treading water for years now.

Erm, the progress halted years ago mate. They were fine for the type of league they took over in. The game has changed. ENIC aren’t turning spurs in to anything more than sometimes a top 4 team; they don’t have the ambition or the cojones.

We are never ever going to get the additional investment needed to challenge for the top tier titles with ENIC. Never:

 

[FightingIllini]

In a world where pumping money into a club is by no means a new or unique idea, I think it is quite naive to assume that it is purely a matter of funding that is preventing progress.

Click to shrink...

The nature of our current PSR-world is that Spurs have greater capacity to pump in money than basically any other club on the planet, certainly from current baseline.

ENIC created that capacity, but will not use it.

Compare where we were in 2001 to now and I'd say that it is completely justified to say there has been a rather consistent growth pattern

Click to shrink...

Compare where we were in 2012 to now and I'd say it's completely justified to say that we have backslid in a rapidly strengthening and evolving league under leadership ill-suited to today's game.

 

[Brian Fantana]

The bottom line is they can’t get us to where the fans want and won’t. So they need to sell to someone who can. We have loads of PSR wriggle room and huge potential. This lot have zero ambition beyond our current state and the fans are hungry to make the next step.

All the rest is just noise. It’s ambitious fans vs content with status quo fans. We will never be more than this under ENIC with the recent boom of more ambitious clubs.

Click to shrink...

Yeah this. They’ve had their time and they can’t take us on any further to the next level. They keep recycling the same ideas just under a different guise all while behaving the same way in the transfer market. The arguments around them are tiresome.

 

[Datzlo]

Great post

These fanatics that desperately try to defend the indefensible regarding our turnover to wages disparity with everyone else.
I'd be interested to see how low we would need to drop before they said

.... "hang on. Something isn't right here"

35% maybe? 30%?

I actually get the feeling there would never be a tipping point for them because they have a mission to always defend the owners with their lives despite all of the glaring evidence that's laid before them.

Click to shrink...

God you say the stupidest things

 

[Datzlo]

IMO Honest John meant the football version of fanatic which is the same meaning as fan. He even agreed with my post on the matter that you responded to, so that clears up what he meant.

If you want to spend your time on here harassing him, then that's your choice but if anything it's you that is misusing the forum.

Click to shrink...

To be fair, a few pages ago there was nothing but constant mockery and harassment of anyone who isn't an absolute melt.

You can't cry foul if he then gets a taste of his own medicine.

 

[Datzlo]

It is not illustrative of ENIC getting it right. Two cups in 25 years is not a successful strategy.

Click to shrink...

Obsessing over crappy cups that the world doesn't care about anymore is not a successful strategy either.

How come you guys can't address the fact that Woolwich won 4 FA Cups in 7 years but no-one took them seriously until they re-entered the CL?

United have been to 4 finals in the last 3 years or so, but are solidly considered Banter FC right now.

As I said, you're pining for the FA Cup to make yourselves whole from decades ago. I'm glad we have bigger and better ambitions than that as a club, because thinking the way you guys do is so very 90s, and will keep us small time.

It's pretty much in line with the previous and what we have always been. What's better Hutton or Bale the end result was the same.

Click to shrink...

But it wasn't. Gareth Bale ordered a taxi for Maicon. Gareth Bale got us Top 4. Gareth Bale became a global superstar that earned us a record transfer fee (although we mostly misspent it).

These things are what enabled us to keep getting better players to the point where we actually flirted with winning the PL and the CL.

We're in much better shape as a club because of signing Modric and Bale than signing Hutton or Rebrov, or tbh Ginola or Gascoigne.

And wasn't Hutton signed under ENIC? It's like you can only judge us against failure but not better run strategical successful clubs. Why?

Click to shrink...

But we're clearly better run than anyone except Liverpool. The oil-rich clubs don't have a 'strategy', they just have endless money they can throw at things until something works.

Again, as I said before, you guys are kidding yourselves if you think that 95% of the footballing pyramid wouldn't kill to have had our recent history.

They sure don't wish they were Palace, by comparison. I think you need to stop caring what Chelsea and Spam fans are saying.

 

[CJJ]

They are valuing it way above what it’s actually worth and nobody is going to pay it.

Click to shrink...

Says who, though? We don't know what the valuation is, or includes. All of it is speculation.

Uh, investment + wage bill increase in particular is intrinsically linked to higher finishes. No reason to think we wouldn’t compete if we skyrocketed our spending.

Click to shrink...

This has been done to death, but the fact is that it is only linked until you get to the top 6 clubs. Beyond then, there is no link.

No reason to think we wouldn’t compete if we skyrocketed our spending.

Click to shrink...

Well, except for the examples of Newcastle, Aston Villa, Everton, Fulham, and Man Utd.

Unless, of course, you ignore that we have been where Newcastle and Aston Villa have been hoping to be for years anyway. We've finished 3rd twice and 2nd once without needing that.


As per all of the above, it is one thing hoping to buy your way into the top four - but to think you can buy your way to the title then that is just a different level of hope, because you're suddenly competing and Man City, who clearly have a lot more than just cash being injected into the football side.
Liverpool are the only comparable team, and people seem to be massively blinded by the fact that they are basically run, and have been for a long time, in a very similar way to our club but have an underlying pedigree that you can't buy that was already there as an advantage. Whether or not things will tail off as they go more into the 'Slot' era and start to deconstruct the Klopp team we'll see, but the idea that there's some 'algorithm' that has wages and money equal success is just going to be a source of disappointment for those who believe it.

 

[Datzlo]

Click to shrink...

Exactly. It's honestly hilarious how the anti-Levy cult can spend day after day, year after year obsessing over the man, impervious to any reason, logic, results or silverware which prove them wrong, even set up loyalty tests to prune the heretics...

But anyone who laughs at them in return must surely be a brainwashed zealot!

 

[FightingIllini]

Says who, though? We don't know what the valuation is, or includes. All of it is speculation.

Click to shrink...

I think it would be fair to say that if the ownership group WANTED to sell, there would be significant interest among very well-capitalized parties, and any such sale would see ENIC book an eye-watering multi-billion pound profit on their investment.

Levy does not want to relinquish control of the club. But he should want that, we want him to want that, it would be to the club's benefit for him to want that.

Well, except for the examples of Newcastle, Aston Villa, Everton, Fulham, and Man Utd.

Unless, of course, you ignore that we have been where Newcastle and Aston Villa have been hoping to be for years anyway. We've finished 3rd twice and 2nd once without needing that.


As per all of the above, it is one thing hoping to buy your way into the top four - but to think you can buy your way to the title then that is just a different level of hope, because you're suddenly competing and Man City, who clearly have a lot more than just cash being injected into the football side.
Liverpool are the only comparable team, and people seem to be massively blinded by the fact that they are basically run, and have been for a long time, in a very similar way to our club but have an underlying pedigree that you can't buy that was already there as an advantage. Whether or not things will tail off as they go more into the 'Slot' era and start to deconstruct the Klopp team we'll see, but the idea that there's some 'algorithm' that has wages and money equal success is just going to be a source of disappointment for those who believe it.

Click to shrink...

The hard objective data here is about fiscal capacity, which we have MUCH more of than Newcastle or Villa, and what that means for PSR headroom, which we have the most of in the league.

Nobody has more scope to strengthen than we do. We're in such a favorable position if only the leadership would change.

ENIC brought us to that favorable position and deserve their plaudits for doing so, but that capacity is withering on the vine.

 

[LeParisien]

Woolwich have been “acting like a big club in the transfer window” according to a lot of you. They’ve spent a lot on wages too.

No trophies for years.

United are the same.

One shitty FA cup.

How do you all explain that ? You would be devastated as a fan of one of them despite the fact you sing their praises on a spurs forum.

 

[MemphisWill]

I was 4% happier 16 months ago when the wage/turnover ratio was 4% higher and still dead last in Deloitte's figures, as we have been every time they have been released.

I may die of joy if we're ever second-to-last.

Click to shrink...

I'm happier now that I've ever been. We just won a fucking trophy. First major trophy in many decades.

 

[FightingIllini]

I'm happier now that I've ever been. We just won a fucking trophy. First major trophy in many decades.

Click to shrink...

Not to be dopey about it, but you are not actually happy in the sense that you understood that the club was going nowhere under the manager that nonetheless achieved said first major trophy in many decades.

Not for the first time in recent ENIC history we are kind of a Potemkin Champions League team.

Woolwich have been “acting like a big club in the transfer window” according to a lot of you. They’ve spent a lot on wages too.

No trophies for years.

United are the same.

One shitty FA cup.

How do you all explain that ? You would be devastated as a fan of one of them despite the fact you sing their praises on a spurs forum.

Click to shrink...

Very simply. Giving everything competitively is no guarantee of success but NOT giving everything competitively is a guarantee of failure.

 

[Deuterz]

Says who, though? We don't know what the valuation is, or includes. All of it is speculation.


This has been done to death, but the fact is that it is only linked until you get to the top 6 clubs. Beyond then, there is no link.


Well, except for the examples of Newcastle, Aston Villa, Everton, Fulham, and Man Utd.

Unless, of course, you ignore that we have been where Newcastle and Aston Villa have been hoping to be for years anyway. We've finished 3rd twice and 2nd once without needing that.


As per all of the above, it is one thing hoping to buy your way into the top four - but to think you can buy your way to the title then that is just a different level of hope, because you're suddenly competing and Man City, who clearly have a lot more than just cash being injected into the football side.
Liverpool are the only comparable team, and people seem to be massively blinded by the fact that they are basically run, and have been for a long time, in a very similar way to our club but have an underlying pedigree that you can't buy that was already there as an advantage. Whether or not things will tail off as they go more into the 'Slot' era and start to deconstruct the Klopp team we'll see, but the idea that there's some 'algorithm' that has wages and money equal success is just going to be a source of disappointment for those who believe it.

Click to shrink...

Pretty fucking obvious that we're valued at an incredible fee due to the "infrastructure" etc and that this would put off major buyers.

Lolol ok - if you actually think we can come close to a CL or league with our current wage structure you are delulu.

Uh, Newcastle have gone from relegation candidates to a better team than us within a matter of a few years LMAO. Their spending has pushed them above us despite a huge gap existing to make up. Villa the same - relegation level team, spending has put them above us as a club. Everton and United are an example of clubs spending decent money terribly but high spending + high investment in wages on the right players elevates teams. Fulham? Their spending is decent at best and has made them a mid-table prem team.

Yeah, we were there before these teams got their new, ambitious owners and then they've kicked us back in to the dirt.

Liverpool spend more on wages, they invest more in elite managers, they are willing to spend huge on individuals who change the game, we are not similar. This club under ENIC is going nowhere. We just finished 17th. Prior to that 5th was celebrated as awesome, and will be again this season because 5th is our ceiling now, we are nowhere close to even the 4th best team in Chelsea who are now signing Xavi Simons just so Palmer can get some rest. The ENIC cultists are absolutely delusional about our place in the prem now.

 

[CJJ]

The hard objective data here is about fiscal capacity, which we have MUCH more of than Newcastle or Villa, and what that means for PSR headroom, which we have the most of in the league.

Click to shrink...

Pretty sure Newcastle, thanks to My Cash-lee, had a significant PSR headroom when PIF took over. It doesn't go far.

What is somewhat amusing though is the idea of altruism that is expected. People bash the current administration for being "in it for the money" and all that jazz. The idea of 'aging local businessman wants to see his team win the league' is anachronistic, and doesn't apply to the modern game any more, so there's absolutely strings attached to the next ownership, and they are - at the very least - the same strings as we currently have.

It is easier when it is a cheaper club like Leeds or as City were, where you can put in a billion and you might make some profit out of creating a consistent PL winning team, but you can also end up back in the championship like Leicester and worth two bob. With us - whether people want to admit it or not - we have a club that is basically the finished article, minus the on-field success. There's not a huge amount to do, really. Commercials are great, facilities are world class, stadium is world class, diversification in interests has been fleshed out (multi-use venue and so on), so the actual room for fiscal growth is reasonably small - meaning that I expect the idea that a Qatari (or similar) fund coming in and spending £500m not only means that they'd expect something back for that, in some way (including holding it as debt agains the club), but that £500m is basically what we've spent in the last 5 season, and what other teams can easily spend and get absolutely zero progress out of.

In short, I think the idea is a bit more constrained than maybe people want to believe. It is strange to me that people would want rid of a down-to-earth local(ish) lad who is friendly and approachable with supporters, and seems to live like a totally normal bloke, attends all the matches etc, and has actually progressed us from where we were - all on the basis that Joe Lewis doesn't appear to want to put any funding in. Get rid of Lewis and it seems to me like it unlocks the doors.

 

[CJJ]

Lolol ok - if you actually think we can come close to a CL or league with our current wage structure you are delulu.

Click to shrink...

So does that mean you're willing to concede that the period of the mid 2010s to the 2020 was an amazingly run club then?

After all, we did that 'delulu' thing on a vastly smaller budget

 

[Deuterz]

Woolwich have been “acting like a big club in the transfer window” according to a lot of you. They’ve spent a lot on wages too.

No trophies for years.

United are the same.

One shitty FA cup.

How do you all explain that ? You would be devastated as a fan of one of them despite the fact you sing their praises on a spurs forum.

Click to shrink...

Vast majority of fans on here would be fucking delighted if we were finishing 2nd and reaching CL semi finals whilst then strengthening with Gyokores & Zubimendi and pushing for Rodyrgo. Delighted. Of course it would be disappointing to not get over the line but there would be belief we could, they pushed a title race down to the last game only the season before last.

United are ran like an absolute basket case so an exception to the usual rules. And yet they won an FA cup and league cup in each of the last two seasons, before that another FA cup and Ropey League (hailed as HUGE on here) .. all in their dryest of dry spells where the club are a shambles.

We are miles, MILES behind Woolwich now. The quality of their squad absolutely pisses on ours from a great height. It is so sad to see and so sad to see fans justify it and pretend it isn't because their owners will go out and spend 100m on a player whereas ours will spend an entire window twiddling their thumbs.

 

[Datzlo]

ENIC brought us to that favorable position and deserve their plaudits for doing so, but that capacity is withering on the vine.

Click to shrink...

Funny, I don't see many such plaudits around here. I mostly see pages of memes and rants about how they've ruined the club.

But yes, ENIC brought us to that position. Speaking for myself, if there isn't a suitable buyer lined up, I'd rather let them keep trying.

 

[LeParisien]

Very simply. Giving everything competitively is no guarantee of success but NOT giving everything competitively is a guarantee of failure.

Click to shrink...

Interesting that the counter examples reinforced your belief in what is required, rather than weakening it.

Logically:

Success = Factors you claim are important + Factors you don’t claim are important

I’m saying the second part of that equation is much bigger than you think.

 

[Deuterz]

So does that mean you're willing to concede that the period of the mid 2010s to the 2020 was an amazingly run club then?

After all, we did that 'delulu' thing on a vastly smaller budget

Click to shrink...

I couldn't give a fucking shit if we were well ran for an era that no longer exists. It actually doesn't matter to me.

We are now a glorified Brighton, except probably actually a worse football team than Brighton currently. Brighton with some glitz.

 

[Deuterz]

I'm honestly not sure how anyone could see the very obvious and consistent decline and stagnation of this football club since the CL final and come to any conclusion other than that we are a club treading water. It's delusional beyond belief to see it any other way.

Since then we have gone from top 4 is a guarantee to top 6, quite often not even that, and top 4 once. The EL win seems to have blinded people as last season we finished 17th. The business we're doing and the way we are behaving is that of a top 8 PL club, not a club trying to force its way in to the top 4 once again.

Those years are over, at very best now we are one of the chasing pack of teams trying to get 5th and hope the PL wins out on co-efficient. Pathetic.