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Player Heung-Min Son (손흥민)

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I think that Son's iffy form has multiple layers to it, but him and Perisic not clicking is one factor in it. We saw a similar issue with Rose, who also in his prime pushed very high up the field and ate up some of the space that Son utilises to his advantage.

Him & Reg was fucking appalling too.

Perhaps he's ok with more passive players like Davies & Sess, but generally he doesn't link well with our WBs/FBs.

The simple fact is he needs to spend less time out on the wing when we are playing with WBs...... He seems to be doing so (see above heat maps), but regretably the other aspects of his game are shot atm.


He's had a very distracting summer what with the golden boot hype, the Beatle-mania of the SK trip, modelling and other such guff... Fair to assume that this may have taken it's toll too, but I'd have expected the Lester saga to have re-focussed him a bit, but he was really shabby in the NLD.
 
Him & Reg was fucking appalling too.

Perhaps he's ok with more passive players like Davies & Sess, but generally he doesn't link well with our WBs/FBs.

The simple fact is he needs to spend less time out on the wing when we are playing with WBs...... He seems to be doing so (see above heat maps), but regretably the other aspects of his game are shot atm.


He's had a very distracting summer what with the golden boot hype, the Beatle-mania of the SK trip, modelling and other such guff... Fair to assume that this may have taken it's toll too, but I'd have expected the Lester saga to have re-focussed him a bit, but he was really shabby in the NLD.
Maybe the solution for now is to keep bringing him on off the bench against tired legs. And giving Kane and Richie the starting minutes. And once Son's mojo is back in alignment he can be re inserted into the starting 11.

But that raises the question if Son would be okay with that.
 
Him & Reg was fucking appalling too.

Perhaps he's ok with more passive players like Davies & Sess, but generally he doesn't link well with our WBs/FBs.

The simple fact is he needs to spend less time out on the wing when we are playing with WBs...... He seems to be doing so (see above heat maps), but regretably the other aspects of his game are shot atm.


He's had a very distracting summer what with the golden boot hype, the Beatle-mania of the SK trip, modelling and other such guff... Fair to assume that this may have taken it's toll too, but I'd have expected the Lester saga to have re-focussed him a bit, but he was really shabby in the NLD.

The simple truth is that facets of his game have always been shabby and always will be.

If that wasn’t the case he’d be at an Uber club by now.

That doesn’t mean he’s not been a very useful tool to have in the box, but the very good stuff has always come with very big compromise.

Right now I’d move to to a 352 and have him and Kane up top. Asks less if Son in terms of team work and off ball stuff, whilst keeping that counter threat.

We should have added at attacking 8 in the summer.
 
I wouldn't say they have a problem playing together- I'd say more like Son is having a tough time playing with anyone right now. Aside from his inspired hattrick, he has had a very tough time successfully linking up play with any of his teammates. I wonder what his possession lost stats look like right now (especially compared to his nearby teammates)- I bet they are horrendous. I love the guy but he's a bit of a black hole right now unless hes shooting on, or running at, goal.
Why do you think that is? He was good coming off the bench scoring hattrick when Perisic wasn't playing.

He has never had a tough time linking up with anyone until now. I'm think the system that Conte implements with Perisic on team doesn't work well with Son. But its unthinkable to drop Son and dropping Perisic will leave the left open.

So putting Son on the right with Perisic or pair him with Sess on the left.
 
Why do you think that is? He was good coming off the bench scoring hattrick when Perisic wasn't playing.

He has never had a tough time linking up with anyone until now.

Not true.

I'm think the system that Conte implements with Perisic on team doesn't work well with Son.

The system hasn't changed.

But its unthinkable to drop Son

Why?

.......Conte did it a couple of weeks back.

and dropping Perisic will leave the left open.

Perisic isn't to blame for Son being in a poor run of form.

He was crap in possession against Woolwich; that's got nothing to do with IP...... And as you can see from the heat maps posted earlier they're not occupying the same space either.


This myth suddently being is both annoying and just that... A myth.
 
The simple truth is that facets of his game have always been shabby and always will be.

If that wasn’t the case he’d be at an Uber club by now.

That doesn’t mean he’s not been a very useful tool to have in the box, but the very good stuff has always come with very big compromise.

I'm totally aware of this..... Much like I am that he has poor runs of form every season.

The fact that we now have 4 credible starters in attack should be enough to spare us much of the pain and frustration.
 
Why do you think that is? He was good coming off the bench scoring hattrick when Perisic wasn't playing.

He has never had a tough time linking up with anyone until now. I'm think the system that Conte implements with Perisic on team doesn't work well with Son. But its unthinkable to drop Son and dropping Perisic will leave the left open.

So putting Son on the right with Perisic or pair him with Sess on the left.
I appreciate your post. I just think its really difficult to draw that kind of a conclusion from the available data, especially when other factors could have had much more of an impact on performance. An example of this would be the hattrick against Leicester- was it more to do with a lack of Perisic, or that Leicester were chasing the game and naturally more exposed to Son's counter attacking strengths? Do we factor in strength of defensive opposition too?

I guess I'd need to see a more compelling argument citing specific plays where Son and Perisic failed to link up, maybe with shrugs, hand gestures, finger pointing and other displays of frustration. And then I'd want to see that this was an outsized majority of their interactions as compared to the rest of the squad's fluency with their positional neighbors.
 
I appreciate your post. I just think its really difficult to draw that kind of a conclusion from the available data, especially when other factors could have had much more of an impact on performance. An example of this would be the hattrick against Leicester- was it more to do with a lack of Perisic, or that Leicester were chasing the game and naturally more exposed to Son's counter attacking strengths? Do we factor in strength of defensive opposition too?

I guess I'd need to see a more compelling argument citing specific plays where Son and Perisic failed to link up, maybe with shrugs, hand gestures, finger pointing and other displays of frustration. And then I'd want to see that this was an outsized majority of their interactions as compared to the rest of the squad's fluency with their positional neighbors.

I already provided the heat map.. If you cant tell why Son is having a hard time getting closer to the goal, watch the previous game again. He barely got a chance in the final 3rd. He's also getting wayyyyyyyyyy less ball touches recently.
 
Another example would be Richarlison- maybe he loses possession more than others simply because he takes more total actions than other players. Yes its probably unlikely but it'd be interesting to at least look at.
So using that argument, shouldn't we be giving Son a little slack for losing possession a little more here and there given he's usually the player that leads our team in dribbles, shot creating actions and was the league's leader in non pen goal contributions over the last 2 seasons?

Why is everyone so surprised that he has patches of form where he loses the ball a few more times a game than some of our other attackers? Wingers that score and assist a lot also lose the ball more than others attackers ie. strikers. Man United Ronaldo is prime example of this.

But yeah I'd agree, it's tough to compare players for this season alone given we are only a few games in.

What I will say is that with both Son and Richie started in the NLD - Richarlison lost the ball 10 times vs Son's 8. So it's just simply not true to single Son out and say that he lost the ball more or was the poorest player out of the front 3.

In fact, I thought Son was our only dangerous attacking threat all game. He was really the only player with the pace and quality to threaten Woolwich all game, though he did mess up the final pass on a couple occasions.

The highlights below + his set piece into Richarlison in the 1st half will tell you that he was indeed our best and most threatening attacker on the day. Missing a couple passes doesn't really change that.

 
bk_spur bk_spur , here are some historical stats/metrics that you wanted to see. What's very apparent is that Son has had meaningfully more touches per game, less possession lost per game, more successful dribbles per game, and more key passes per game. Not to mention Son in almost every season has significantly more goals, assists, crosses, shot creating actions, big chances created, etc. etc.

To be honest, it's not really close. The numbers clearly suggest that Son's is the more direct, risk taking player and he loses possession meaningfully less than Richie.

And this isn't a knock on Richie at all. Sometimes, I just think that Son is really underappreciated by a lot of fans. The guy is of supreme quality on so many levels and it's the reason why he's been our POTY in 3 of the last 4 seasons. He's not just a player that scores goals.

Richarlison's Per Game Stats
21/22: 38.4 touches / 14.2 possession lost / 1.3 successful dribbles / 1.0 key passes
20/21: 40.1 touches / 13.0 possession lost / 1.8 successful dribbles / 0.7 key passes
19/20: 43.0 touches / 15.2 possession lost / 1.7 successful dribbles / 0.9 key passes

Son's Per Game Stats
21/22: 48.1 touches / 13.3 possession lost / 1.5 successful dribbles / 2.1 key passes
20/21: 44.8 touches / 11.9 possession lost / 1.1 successful dribbles / 2.0 key passes
19/20: 45.8 touches / 12.1 possession lost / 2.1 successful dribbles / 1.4 key passes

*BOLDED STATS INDICATE BETTER OUTPUT THAN OTHER PLAYER IN THE YEAR
 
bk_spur bk_spur , here are some historical stats/metrics that you wanted to see. What's very apparent is that Son has had meaningfully more touches per game, less possession lost per game, more successful dribbles per game, and more key passes per game. Not to mention Son in almost every season has significantly more goals, assists, crosses, shot creating actions, big chances created, etc. etc.

To be honest, it's not really close. The numbers clearly suggest that Son's is the more direct, risk taking player and he loses possession meaningfully less than Richie.

And this isn't a knock on Richie at all. Sometimes, I just think that Son is really underappreciated by a lot of fans. The guy is of supreme quality on so many levels and it's the reason why he's been our POTY in 3 of the last 4 seasons. He's not just a player that scores goals.

Richarlison's Per Game Stats
21/22: 38.4 touches / 14.2 possession lost / 1.3 successful dribbles / 1.0 key passes
20/21: 40.1 touches / 13.0 possession lost / 1.8 successful dribbles / 0.7 key passes
19/20: 43.0 touches / 15.2 possession lost / 1.7 successful dribbles / 0.9 key passes

Son's Per Game Stats
21/22: 48.1 touches / 13.3 possession lost / 1.5 successful dribbles / 2.1 key passes
20/21: 44.8 touches / 11.9 possession lost / 1.1 successful dribbles / 2.0 key passes
19/20: 45.8 touches / 12.1 possession lost / 2.1 successful dribbles / 1.4 key passes

*BOLDED STATS INDICATE BETTER OUTPUT THAN OTHER PLAYER IN THE YEAR
Fair enough- and genuine respect to you for assembling the relevant stats here. Perhaps we ought to explore other reasons for this statistical occurrence?
 
What is going on with him at the moment?
Absolutely woeful today, some terrible touches and braindead decisions.

Has had one good game this season and that was as a sub.
 
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