I agree with this. He is also far more potent a bit more centrally - like he was in the Leicester goals in 352. Feels to me he should be up top in a 2 or benched if 3 up top coming on as impact sub
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Player Heung-Min Son (손흥민)
- Thread starter jimmyriggle
- Start date
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The problem is, we aren't better off without him - we are worse. Look at the Leicester game for the first 70 minutes. We looked like crap. Couldn't string together passes and our defense was extremely suspect. Our goals came from corners/set pieces and a massive flub from Ndidi. We managed to make the worst team in the Premier League look like a legit team for 2/3 of the game. If we played like that against Woolwich, we are getting 5 put past us.
Agree but I think that is what Perisic is supposed to be doing. Son appears too used to playing as a LAM/LW. In this system (3-4-3) he is a LF, sits closer to goal, and is not meant to be hugging the sideline.They actually do have a problem playing together. Probably not for Perisic but for Son. Look at the heatmap. Perisic is taking over Son's space and Son is forced to play more defensively.
How can he possibly be closer to the goal when he has to track down most of the time to help with the defense..?
I am not sure why Conte decided to change something that was working great last season that helped us finish top 4.
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On the contrary; no. He is playing LFwd (as he was last season).
Positionally speaking, there is no wingers in a 343. (A WB is a fusion of a FB & a winger.)
(See my prev. post re the heat maps you posted) - That's not what's happening.
It's not really clear what you think is going on here.
Last season:
Son / Kane / Kulu
LWB / CM / CM / RWB
CB / CB / CB
This season:LWB / CM / CM / RWB
CB / CB / CB
Son / Kane / ???
LWB / CM / CM / RWB
CB / CB / CB
I don't understand what you think has changed.LWB / CM / CM / RWB
CB / CB / CB
we are better off without him if he cant keep the ball, to say hes offering nothing is an understatement hes actually fucking us up. hes also far more useful coming off the bench in certain games than he is starting. leicester we was doing alright until sanchez done a sanchez. its taking one bad link out and putting in another when bringing that clown into the fold.
Son was fine last season without Perisic. I think the system Conte is playing right can work, it's just that Son and Perisic have the worst synergy together. To top it all off, Son's bad form is amplifying everything. None of our players played well yesterday, not even Romero. It's a matter of either benching Son or moving Perisic out of his position again. If we want to win anything we need consistency. We are obviously not getting that out of Son right now.
Richarlison is the most dispossessed player per 90 by a meaningful margin out of our 4 this season. And he was also the most dispossessed player against Woolwich.
And we were poor against Leicester for the first 70 mins - we managed to make them look solid.
What I would personally do to get the best out of him is to put him further up front instead of positioning him like a DM. He's at his best when he's playing closer to the opponents goal.
Dropping Son isn't going to solve our issues just like it wasn't the solution last year when you were pounding the table for him to be dropped for Stevie B.
He's still our most dangerous threat and this was still the case against Woolwich despite not being fully sharp. Majority of our best chances came via Son's efforts.
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So far this season Son (1.3) is dispossessed more per game than Richarlison (1).
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Son is only dispossessed 1.3x and Richarlison only 1x? That can't be right.So far this season Son (1.3) is dispossessed more per game than Richarlison (1).
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I'm actually talking about possession lost. Every attacker loses the ball at least 10 times a game.
Also, you need to prorate it so that you're comparing apples to apples. Son has played more mins per game than Richarlison (74 mins vs 42 mins). You need to look at per 90 min stats.
Possession Lost Per 90 Mins (This season in PL)
Kane - 12.2
Kulu - 12.9
Son - 14.6
Richarlison - 16.9
Key Passes Per 90 Mins (This season in PL)
Richarlison - 2.3
Son - 2.3
Kulu - 2.1
Kane - 2.0
Heung-min Son stats and ratings | Sofascore
Heung-min Son profile player page. Goals, matches, stats, player ratings and more.
www.sofascore.com
Richarlison stats and ratings | Sofascore
Richarlison profile player page. Goals, matches, stats, player ratings and more.
www.sofascore.com
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One thing is for sure, we are better off without him when he is out of form.
You could say that about any player.
And we dropped him against Leicester didn't we? The issues were still present. I didn't hear anyone saying we played well up until Son came on. Richarlison wasn't good at all playing like a DM that Conte has got him and Son playing in.
Son is only dispossessed 1.3x and Richarlison only 1x? That can't be right.
I'm actually talking about possession lost. Every attacker loses the ball at least 10 times a game.
Also, you need to prorate it so that you're comparing apples to apples. Son has played more mins per game than Richarlison (74 mins vs 42 mins). You need to look at per 90 min stats.
Possession Lost Per 90 Mins (This season in PL)
Kane - 12.2
Kulu - 12.9
Son - 14.6
Richarlison - 16.9
Key Passes Per 90 Mins (This season in PL)
Richarlison - 2.3
Son - 2.3
Kulu - 2.1
Kane - 2.0
Heung-min Son stats and ratings | Sofascore
Heung-min Son profile player page. Goals, matches, stats, player ratings and more.Richarlison stats and ratings | Sofascore
Richarlison profile player page. Goals, matches, stats, player ratings and more.
I'm not sure the criteria used by who scored but I assumed it was per 90.
But even according to the web site you've linked, it says Son possession lost (per 90 presumably) 12, Richarlison 7.9?
Where are you getting 14.6 and 16.9 from?
It's not per 90 min. It's per appearance. You need to adjust it to get to per 90 min played.
So just going through Richarlison's possession lost stats per game in the PL this season:
Woolwich: 71 mins / 10 lost
Leiceseter: 59 mins / 11 lost
Fulham: 90 mins / 14 lost
West Ham: 14 mins / 2 lost
Forest: 16 mins / 5 lost
Wolves: 14 mins / 5 lost
Chelsea: 33 mins / 8 lost
Total: 297 Mins / 55 possessions lost
Per game: 42 mins / 7.9 possessions lost
Per 90 : 90 mins / 16.8 possession lost
Son is at 14.6 possessions lost per 90 this season.
Even at Everton, he was never known to be a very good at ball retention. In fact, he's had years significantly worse in terms of ball retention than Son is having at the present moment. A couple seasons ago, he was at 19 possessions lost per 90 mins.
Ah OK.
But to balance that up, Richarlison (47.9) sees more of the ball per 90 than Son(41). carries the ball more than Son per 90 (34.8 v 26.7) he also works harder (almost double the pressures (20 v 11) and tackles 1.8 v 0.9) per 90.
This is the conundrum. Son is capable of scoring great goals, but he's normally incredibly patchy. When he's not scoring his all round contribution as absolutely gash. He's fucking atrocious without the ball, rarely gets within two yards of pressing anyone, cannot hold the ball with his back to a defender without coughing it up in panic and his passing, even over short distances can be really erratic. And he's non existent in the air anywhere on the pitch.
Richarlison is also far from perfect, bumbles, and is less likely to score than Son, but will work harder for the team and more effectively, much better without the ball, and will put himself about a bit more for his team.
I think until we have a genuine upgrade on both, they are going to share minutes. I quite like Richarlison starting and wearing defenders down and then bringing Son on to go at tired players. That's what happened against Leicester.
Your point about us being better after Son came on is a bit disingenuous. By then Leicester are a goal down and chasing the game, and getting desperate throwing more people forward. But it's not like our overall performance improved, there were just more spaces on the counter then. Son's first goal he takes on a worldy shot instead of playing Hojbjerg clean through. Really dubious percentage call for the team - but it worked out for him this time.
And what about all the games Son started at the start of the season where he was awful - and the negative impact that had on our performances? Against Marseille there was a reverse scenario where Richarlison came on and won the game with two goals.
As I said, it's a conundrum, because both are capable of decent things. Neither are complete.
I think you are doing Son's defensive contribution a disservice. He is always back covering and very good positionally.
However, we don't need a defender. We need a striker.
With our run of fixtures, we need all our 4 main forwards to play well- they’ll all get plenty of minutes.
Our best combination is Son Kane Kulu.
Our best combination is Son Kane Kulu.
Are we just going to forget that Son just won the golden boot and was arguably the best player in the PL last season. You do realize that he's #1 in terms of non penalty goal contributions in the Premier League over the last 2 seasons. And he's been our POTY in 3 of the last 4 seasons. Whether you agree or not, he's been our best player in the past several seasons overall and one of the best players in the league.
What does this look like last season for Son? And how do these numbers compare to Kane's.
I personally think Richarlison should be fighting for Kane's job as a CF in addition to competing for minutes on the wings.
There is a very legitimate argument for Richie starting over Kane given Kane's inability to press, lack of pace, ability to get in behind etc. He has all the other skills/ability of a good CF as well.
Playing Richarlison at CF would give us a lot more dynamism up front. I don't think Richarlison's signing is just a question of Son vs Richarlison, or Richarlison vs Kulu.
"Decent things" like the Golden Boot without taking a penalty in Son's case and leading the league in non pen goal contributions over the last 2 seasons?
Son is literally one of the best LW in the world over the last several seasons. Full stop.
Are you forgetting that Kane had 1 goal through December last season? And was never dropped? Everyone has bad patches of form.
Thus far, Son is 2nd in goals on our team and has as many assists as Kane. All things considered, it's not remotely close to being as poor as Kane last season.
Who drew the red card to get them down to 10 men to tilt the game in our favor when it looked like we would perhaps lose or get a draw at best?
I like this post, but do want to warn that it is dangerous to extrapolate all actions to 90'. You can lose a lot of nuance about situational play. Small sample sizes with outlier results extrapolated can make an inconsistent player look reliable. Another example would be Richarlison- maybe he loses possession more than others simply because he takes more total actions than other players. Yes its probably unlikely but it'd be interesting to at least look at.Son is only dispossessed 1.3x and Richarlison only 1x? That can't be right.
I'm actually talking about possession lost. Every attacker loses the ball at least 10 times a game.
Also, you need to prorate it so that you're comparing apples to apples. Son has played more mins per game than Richarlison (74 mins vs 42 mins). You need to look at per 90 min stats.
Possession Lost Per 90 Mins (This season in PL)
Kane - 12.2
Kulu - 12.9
Son - 14.6
Richarlison - 16.9
Key Passes Per 90 Mins (This season in PL)
Richarlison - 2.3
Son - 2.3
Kulu - 2.1
Kane - 2.0
Heung-min Son stats and ratings | Sofascore
Heung-min Son profile player page. Goals, matches, stats, player ratings and more.Richarlison stats and ratings | Sofascore
Richarlison profile player page. Goals, matches, stats, player ratings and more.