How far would you go for success

[TonySoprano]

Haven't they already thrown gays of stadium roofs in some of those countries we're referring to? It just wasn't a stadium we could visit.

So that bridge has already been crossed from what i can see.

 

[sammyspurs]

City are the dominant club .. as for why, it's because they have lots of money but also are superbly run with a long-term plan built in for a single manager (Guardiola) which is now seeing them reap the benefits of that. United have spent just as much if not more in the same period but aren't nearly as good.

But they're still yet to win a European trophy. And have only ever retained their title once, personally I don't expect them to win it this season. They're obviously an extremely good side, but the Premier League has seen years before oil money where United would win it nearly every single season. Is it a more closed shop than it was then?

I didn't say oil money won't make you a much better side, I just refute the idea that it's said money which is causing leagues to become closed shops. That was the case long before they arrived, they've just added to the list of the clubs capable of dominating, and knocked the traditional powerhouses noses out of joint.

There is no longevity in building a squad and using your academy.
Serial winners are owned by owners who are willing to spend a few billion over five years.

That’s an elite, closed loop.
It means that Everton will never win the PL until they do the same

That’s why Newcastle have done it.
That’s why some of our fans want it.

No one cares if you’re well run if you’re owned by Dubai

 

[Deuterz]

They won't have the financial muscle to keep up..... They're a bit like us in that, unless they sell Salah (see Kane) they're gonna have to re-build the hard way (with hard cash).



No reason why they can't keep the train rolling with the next hot-shot manager.

I *think* they will sell Salah. Happy to be proven wrong on that but with their moneyball structure, it would make sense now he's approaching 30 and at the peak of his value, that they moved him on ala Hazard to Madrid for some tremendous fee. With Mbappe to Madrid looking on, whose to say he doesn't head to PSG?

And nobody is as good as Guardiola at what he does. Tremendously underrated coach. They will obviously still be very good when he goes, but I don't see them dominating to the same extent.

 

[hiatus]

As for the poll, I'd probably be fine up to the Abramovich level.

I don't blame Newcastle fans for being excited. What bothers me are the fans waving KSA flags and dressing up like MBS. You can still support your club and not actively support a murderous regime.

 

[Airfixx]

In 3 years it will be:

Newcastle, City, Chelsea and United.
Then Liverpool, Spurs and Woolwich.
Then Leicester and Everton.
Then the rest.

The bottom 3 rungs can move about, but no one can compete financially with that top 4. Honestly, United may even be on it's own tier between the oligarchy clubs and Liverpool/Spurs/Woolwich.

Sooner or later Spam will get bought up and settle in somewhere in that 2nd or 3rd tier too.

 

[hiatus]

I *think* they will sell Salah. Happy to be proven wrong on that but with their moneyball structure, it would make sense now he's approaching 30 and at the peak of his value, that they moved him on ala Hazard to Madrid for some tremendous fee. With Mbappe to Madrid looking on, whose to say he doesn't head to PSG?

And nobody is as good as Guardiola at what he does. Tremendously underrated coach. They will obviously still be very good when he goes, but I don't see them dominating to the same extent.

Liverpool would be crazy not to sell Salah. Turns 30 next summer, wants a ridiculous contract and they could get loads for him still.

They can use that money to rebuild their aging attack and keep it going a few more years under Klopp.

 

[Deuterz]

There is no longevity in building a squad and using your academy.
Serial winners are owned by owners who are willing to spend a few billion over five years.

That’s an elite, closed loop.
It means that Everton will never win the PL until they do the same

That’s why Newcastle have done it.
That’s why some of our fans want it.

No one cares if you’re well run if you’re owned by Dubai

But as I've said .. when has this not been true? Simply with smaller sums of money, but whoever spent the most would do well. United were the biggest spenders when they had a stranglehold over the league. Berlusconi turned Milan in to a powerhouse via throwing money at it, and now people act like they're not a plastic club and all is forgotten.

But otherwise I agree. Football isn't fair. Everton had next to no chance of winning a league before oil money though, and they have next to no chance now. Leicester was a more surprising league winner than we've seen in decades, and they came post-oil. How many underdog stories did we see before Abramovich arrived in the Prem?

And I didn't say you have to praise them. But that's the reality of why they're dominant and another team who spend similar amounts (United) aren't.

 

[hiatus]

Sooner or later Spam will get bought up and settle in somewhere in that 2nd or 3rd tier too.

Yes this obviously can and will change, just sort of "where everyone is now" sort of outlook.

Just purely from a financial standpoint there is a clear line between the big 6 + Newcastle and everyone else. For now.

 

[Airfixx]

I *think* they will sell Salah. Happy to be proven wrong on that but with their moneyball structure, it would make sense.....

Hard to say.... As per us speaking about this last night; their big sales over the last 10+ years have all been thru circumstance rather than design.

(Again; same as us..... Bale, Berba, Modric / Sterling, Suarez, Coutinho.)

 

[hiatus]

I feel the Leicester ownership/model would be best

I feel like that is what we are trying to do but Leicester went and hired a bunch of competent people to run their football operations (as did Liverpool) and only this past summer did Levy sort of, kind of step back from the day-to-day football stuff.

Drives me crazy - just look at what Leicester and Liverpool are doing and copy it. Stop trying to act like a "big club" and start making smart decisions that will make sure that you are one. Spurs have financial resources that are matched by maybe 15 other clubs in the world, just needs smart people actually running it from a footballing standpoint.

 

[Dr Rocktopus]

We were rumoured to being close to being bought by the Rothschilds.

That could have been fun, but they're not exactly a family with an unblemished past.

 

[Airfixx]

Yes this obviously can and will change, just sort of "where everyone is now" sort of outlook.

Just purely from a financial standpoint there is a clear line between the big 6 + Newcastle and everyone else. For now.

I just think their status as the next biggest London team makes it more a matter of if rather than when for them.

 

[Deuterz]

Hard to say.... As per us speaking about this last night; their big sales over the last 10+ years have all been thru circumstance rather than design.

(Again; same us us..... Bale, Berba, Modric / Sterling, Suarez, Coutinho.)

It's always a risk, but if they can get the manager right and somewhat sensibly spend, they'll still be up there. They've got a fantastic core of players who won't be fully declining for another 3/4 seasons minimum.

 

[FightingIllini]

I just think their status as the next biggest London team makes it more a matter of if rather than when for them.

The stadium deal is hugely favorable to them in a sense, but does limit the upside to owning the club.

Real estate is the world these guys who run sovereign wealth funds know and understand. West Ham is “just” a football club.

Tottenham Hotspur Plc is a jewel of a real estate portfolio, only trouble is the price reflects that. Newcastle went for what, 1/6 of what ENIC would want for Spurs, maybe less?

See the “is the football bubble bursting?” thread, there’s a lot of risk in that kind of valuation.

 

[hiatus]

The stadium deal is hugely favorable to them in a sense, but does limit the upside to owning the club.

Real estate is the world these guys who run sovereign wealth funds know and understand. West Ham is “just” a football club.

Tottenham Hotspur Plc is a jewel of a real estate portfolio, only trouble is the price reflects that. Newcastle went for what, 1/6 of what ENIC would want for Spurs, maybe less?

See the “is the football bubble bursting?” thread, there’s a lot of risk in that kind of valuation.

London + Stadium + Club brand, Spurs would sell for north of £2B.

Newcastle makes sense for a foreign "investor" that has no real interest in the local community outside of the club.

But there are billionaires that would much prefer the established, turn-key club in London. Guys are dropping $2.3B to buy the Carolina Panthers, there are people out there that would be willing to buy Spurs.

 

[FightingIllini]

London + Stadium + Club brand, Spurs would sell for north of £2B.

Newcastle makes sense for a foreign "investor" that has no real interest in the local community outside of the club.

But there are billionaires that would much prefer the established, turn-key club in London. Guys are dropping $2.3B to buy the Carolina Panthers, there are people out there that would be willing to buy Spurs.

Oh there could be buyers for Spurs, no question.

I can see why Newcastle were appealing at that price point, is all I’m saying, and more appealing potentially than West Ham.

 

[Airfixx]

The stadium deal is hugely favorable to them in a sense, but does limit the upside to owning the club.

Real estate is the world these guys who run sovereign wealth funds know and understand. West Ham is “just” a football club.

Can't remember the specifics now, but there's some kind of clause with the WH/stadium deal which after a certain period of time leaves them in very tasty position to cash in and the lease runs for 99 years so whoever's next has no worries on that front.

Oh there could be buyers for Spurs, no question.

I can see why Newcastle were appealing at that price point, is all I’m saying, and more appealing potentially than West Ham.

Well the NC cab has now left the rank..... Who's next is being discussed.

 

[MemphisWill]

Why? Winning the lottery of ownership is by far the most reliable way to challenge the established elite clubs.

Those established elite clubs came up with the super league in part to stop that and create a closed club for good.

You could be pro Saudi ownership and anti the super league without being a hypocrite.

TBF, a closed Super League was pretty much the only reliable way to go about legally and effectively creating a framework which would allow for cost-control measures (i.e. spending caps, even revenue split) which can create a meritocracy with parity. Its why practically every other sport around the operates a closed model.

Was that in the initial proposal? Absolutely not. But the initial proposal created a model in which those measures could be introduced - and the initial proposal was cooked up by people like ENIC, FSG, and the Glazers who absolutely had that model in mind.

In a closed system and even revenue split you can institute spending limits without anyone crying foul and claiming your rules endanger their investment - even with a bad season, the worst club will still be roughly as profitable as the best club. Clubs no longer have an incentive to focus on finances over sport, they're protected from endangering themselves. The "business" becomes a totally adjacent matter to the sport,, and the owners generally keep their noses out of the on-field stuff. This is what so many here constantly whinge about, caring about the results on the field not the balance sheets.

Likewise, in such a system, it doesn't matter who sells the most tyre sponsorships - everyone shares in the money, and everyone's finances are regulated the same. It comes down to who can scout, develop, and acquire talent within that system the best.

It just works. It comes at the cost of being able to fall asleep dreaming as a 10 year old about winning the lotto, buying Derby, and making them champions of europe. But financial doping plus the invasion of investment tycoons and explosion of costs means thats really all just a fantasy anyway. As incredible as Leicester was (cunts) does anyone think it'll even remotely happen again - especially since the number of doped clubs only seems to grow?

Whats the alternative? Even FFP actually damages the chances of lower clubs more than higher clubs - it locks in their proportional spending advantage, and its why FFP was concocted not by the poor clubs but by the rich clubs.

Just like with the minimum wage for regular folks, trying to address wealth inequality by leaving the system open and not forcibly extracting wealth from the top and redistributing it downwards will only fail. There's no way to make that equation balance. The open system is built for inherent wealth aggregation.

So yeah, the ESL was shitty and was going to kill football. But 21st century football is really already shitty and dead, we just like to con ourselves into thinking the opposite. Football was sold the day they put a sponsor on a shirt, in all truth.

 

[ShutUpPatrik]

Oh there could be buyers for Spurs, no question.

I can see why Newcastle were appealing at that price point, is all I’m saying, and more appealing potentially than West Ham.

The Saudi probably in part targeted Newcastle because they knew about the relationship between Ashley and the fanbase. They knew that they would be received as heroes and quickly get the fans on side to defend them from the inevitable backlash.

They 100% did their research.

 

[Deuterz]

So yeah, the ESL was shitty and was going to kill football. But 21st century football is really already shitty and dead, we just like to con ourselves into thinking the opposite. Football was sold the day they put a sponsor on a shirt, in all truth.

Indeed. I have no issue with people hating oil clubs or the regimes behind them, but the notion that they 'killed' football, or caused it to become a closed shop is just silly to me. Most of us on here would've been fans when United practically owned the league. Almost every elite club became that way because they were pumped full of money at one point, Madrid are the biggest club in Europe and were practically state backed long before it came in to fashion. I already mentioned Berlusconi.

It's been an unfair closed club for a long, long time. And I can't help but find it amusing when fans of the elite teams cry that it's unfair and they 'bought' their success, as if their own teams didn't do it, just a long time ago. Or when men like Perez cry about their clubs not having enough money, when they throw 120m at Hazard and bid 200 for a player whose contract is running out. Absurd hypocrites.