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Manager Jose Mourinho

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This same squad of players that were well-coached to perform better than the sum of their parts and as a consequence challenged for titles and cups constantly for five years on the trot!

It's the coach.

Its not the same team at all.

Jan and Toby are no longer the top defensive pair in the league and are arguably not even starting quality anymore. We don't have Dembele or anyone to replace him in the team. We don't have prime Wanyama playing in the role of DM protecting the back 4 and allowing the AM to do what they need to. Lloris is older, Kane has been injured and our FBs are not close to what they were.

We are seeing all the same problems with this squad as we did with the Poch team in the second half of last season and start of this season. All the same issues present with the team now were present before Jose got here.
 
Who has made a bigger impact on their squads' style of play (NOT RESULTS BUT HOW THEY PLAY)?
a) Jose at Tottenham
or
b) Arteta at the scum

I think this is a good comparison as if you think that it's down to shit players then they can come into that category. They also have signed few players and have been below us for 5yrs.
arteta. he has to work with David Luiz every week it's embarassing they are ahead of us
 
Yeah the agreement would have been sensible but think it unlikely. I dont think he'll be sacked this summer but think he will be in October/November because of results and moaning about transfers. Just feels an inevitability about it.

The only reason I don’t think he will be sacked mid season is because of the problems levy had finding a replacement for Poch at that time. No decent manager will want to take over thenor we will have to get a caretaker in.
 
Who has made a bigger impact on their squads' style of play (NOT RESULTS BUT HOW THEY PLAY)?
a) Jose at Tottenham
or
b) Arteta at the scum

I think this is a good comparison as if you think that it's down to shit players then they can come into that category. They also have signed few players and have been below us for 5yrs.

Neither really has done a great job at it but if you want to give a bunch of credit to Arteta while ignoring results (for no apparent reason other than it kills your argument to look at results) then go right ahead.
 
Its not the same team at all.

Jan and Toby are no longer the top defensive pair in the league and are arguably not even starting quality anymore. We don't have Dembele or anyone to replace him in the team. We don't have prime Wanyama playing in the role of DM protecting the back 4 and allowing the AM to do what they need to. Lloris is older, Kane has been injured and our FBs are not close to what they were.

We are seeing all the same problems with this squad as we did with the Poch team in the second half of last season and start of this season. All the same issues present with the team now were present before Jose got here.
You just asked me "why Poch couldn't improve the team".

Now you move the goalposts and state it's not the same team. The reason why Poch couldn't improve the team is the reasons I gave in my original answer. Which has nothing to do with it being a different team today.
 
Because like Pep at Bayern and Klopp at Dortmund the teams were struggling to deal with the intensity of the coaching and the methods. It needs to be refreshed to maintain it, there is a cycle in football. Fergie always renewed and was aloud to renew and he then kept it fresh and the players responded as a consequence.
It sounds to me that Poch was in fact the Teflon man.
Like I said the more he spent the worse we got his team peaked 3 years ago we have been on a downward spiral ever since.
But Jose is to blame you fucking idiot.
 
You just asked me "why Poch couldn't improve the team".

Now you move the goalposts and state it's not the same team. The reason why Poch couldn't improve the team is the reasons I gave in my original answer. Which has nothing to do with it being a different team today.

When did I ask you why Poch couldn't improve the team?
 
Imagine what that counter would look like if players all knew where each other was running to, imagine what it would be like if you were the player breaking on the ball, knowing before you even kicked the ball that you've only got to decide if you are going to hit the runner to the back post or near post before you've even looked up.

Not a great fan of Aurier’s crossing to be honest whatever the stats say however you have a very valid point regarding our counter attacks. There definitely appears to be a lack of movement in the box which must make Aurier’s task of crossing all the more difficult. This should be obvious to the forward players themselves as trying to gain a yard in the box is one of the basics and should come naturally to them but clearly doesn’t. Why can’t Mourinho spot this and work with the forwards to correct this
 
arteta. he has to work with David Luiz every week it's embarassing they are ahead of us
The bottom line for me is it's clear how he wants them to play. He has in phases achieved a method. He's miles away from completing it but in 9 fewer games than Jose (in fact it was evident after just a couple) it's clear there is a kernel of an identity being formed.

When Poch joined it was also clear in the early days what identity he was working towards too.
 
Then it's not being coached and Jose is getting found out tactically.

But the same thing was happening towards the end of Poch reign

I’m at a loss

When Ndombele and Alli came on neither of them appeared to give a fuck
Or is it just me?

Major pissed off with this shower now because as a supporter since ‘61 I’ve seen it all before
 
The only reason I don’t think he will be sacked mid season is because of the problems levy had finding a replacement for Poch at that time. No decent manager will want to take over thenor we will have to get a caretaker in.
Quite possibly which is why i'd do it the day after the season finishes. Possibly harsh and he would have been dealt a bit of a rubbish hand but it just puts everyone out of their misery, including him and allows us to get a decent replacement rather than another mid season fudge.
 
The bottom line for me is it's clear how he wants them to play. He has in phases achieved a method. He's miles away from completing it but in 9 fewer games than Jose (in fact it was evident after just a couple) it's clear there is a kernel of an identity being formed.

When Poch joined it was also clear in the early days what identity he was working towards too.

If that is all it takes then Jose wants us to play a boring defensive game. It is all a majority of fans have banged on about for his whole time here about how he has this team playing a boring, defensive style.

If results and being effective at implementing your style don't matter then Jose has done just as good a job at installing his identity on the team as the great Arteta.
 
I currently have mixed feelings on Jose.

I think he deserves more time before we write him off as a failure here. He walked into a tough situation and seemed to have turned things around. We jumped up the table pretty fast before the injuries hit. And the injuries we had were a legit excuse. Anyone who says it isn't just wants to bash Jose because they don't like him. Then we had the pandemic. Even though we're healthy now, it's expected to see rust.

However, what we're seeing is more than rust. The starting 11 yesterday was a real head scratcher. He couldn't decide between Bergwijn and Lucas (despite Bergwijn clearly being in better form) so he just started both of them. So we had a striker and 3 wingers. And it didn't work. We had a heavy attacking lineup and couldn't piece together a single set of passes. The attack looked lifeless. The 4 up front just didn't work in that set up and Sissoko was struggling big time in distributing the ball. We didn't have a #10 in there to complete that final pass or to make that play in the final third and that is exactly what we were missing. It was such a mess.

The most bothersome part of that team selection is how he just can't drop Lucas, and will sacrifice tactics to make him fit. Yet with Ndombele he claims he simply doesn't have enough spots for every good player to start. What has Lucas shown recently for him to claim a vital role in the starting 11? Ndombele deserves to start. Not be thrown into a game we're already losing, in a formation that doesn't make sense, and within a team that is lacking any real desire to make a comeback. Jose did a really poor job in this game.

Another concerning thing from this game regarding his tactics, I feel like he's trying to evolve into the modern game. I just don't know if he knows how. We look so much more organized when he sets up the team defensively and we play the counter. But in games we try to attack we look disorganized and inept. I think the Burnely game is the only exception to this.

While all that is bad.....I do like most of what he is saying.

The past few days he seems to be focusing on the club mentality. The comments about drama any time a good player is on the bench, and then after the game when he criticized the players for checking out after the VAR decision. And it wasn't just them checking out. They were being assholes (Lo Celso especially). We've seen this before with multiple players. We get down, lose focus, and start rough/shit talking. The CL run is such an outlier, I still can't believe we overcame both those deficits.

It's been a chaotic season. Even though it won't be a proper offseason, I'd still like to see Jose go through a window to reshape the squad and then mold them in training camp before the new season. I think it's completely unfair to call for his sacking now.
 
Like I say mate Madrid and Chelsea have got a lot off managers the boot as have that United team since Fergie left tbf.

Mourinho obviously ain't the greatest man manager but the reason Chelsea and United have improved since Mou left is because the cleared out the toxic dressing room not because off the replacements who have both basically done the same thing. In getting rid off older toxic voices in the dressing room and bringing in young hungry players with a point to prove.

Like what we did with Poch and I hope we are gonna go with Mou now the squads had it's day and needs gutting and Mourinho deserves at least a year to do it before we start writing him off IMO
What? The Chelsea squad the following season was much the same and they won the league? What toxic players did they get rid of?

The truth is Jose TURNS players toxic.
 
Because like Pep at Bayern and Klopp at Dortmund the teams were struggling to deal with the intensity of the coaching and the methods. It needs to be refreshed to maintain it, there is a cycle in football. Fergie always renewed and was aloud to renew and he then kept it fresh and the players responded as a consequence.
I don’t get how people can claim to be such fans of football and not understand such simple concepts.

Fergie also sold many a player where the consensus was that he was barking mad, but he was creating a pathway for a emerging talent and a different playing style. He also changed his no2 regularly so United could still be at the cutting edge tactically.
 
Quite possibly which is why i'd do it the day after the season finishes. Possibly harsh and he would have been dealt a bit of a rubbish hand but it just puts everyone out of their misery, including him and allows us to get a decent replacement rather than another mid season fudge.

I wouldn’t be against it but I also don’t think it matters who the manager is. We virtually need a brand new team.
 
Individual errors, losing focus, lackadaisical efforts, resorting to playing like assholes....these are the things that have always held us back. Even with Poch. The weaknesses haven't changed with Jose. Maybe we need a fresh set of players.
 
Not a great fan of Aurier’s crossing to be honest whatever the stats say however you have a very valid point regarding our counter attacks. There definitely appears to be a lack of movement in the box which must make Aurier’s task of crossing all the more difficult. This should be obvious to the forward players themselves as trying to gain a yard in the box is one of the basics and should come naturally to them but clearly doesn’t. Why can’t Mourinho spot this and work with the forwards to correct this
Jose's philosophy is his attackers should be set free to work it out for themselves.

For me it's not lack of movement, it's just the oppo knowing that the attacks are coming via this route they can preparer for it, they can train for it. It's just made a low % opportunity become an even lower % opportunity.

To look at just a couple of things that differ and can work. When we pushed Davies up on the left against West Ham, we genuinely stretched their defence, it created space and are attacks look more threatening, we were also able to to keep more sustained pressure on them so we could recycle our attacks.

Another, was bringing on Ndombele yesterday, there was a pass that split their defence and found Kane, who was offside but this is Ndombele's bread and butter, it's what he excels at.

But in both of these cases it means we commit men forward, I just can't see Jose allowing this to happen unless were are already losing the game and it's not far off the final whistle. Evidenced by Lo Celso's position during the game, way too deep and ultimately as effective as Winks in the same position, it's not in their skill sets and it blunts us.
 
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