Let's Be Brutally Honest - Our Matchday Squad is No Longer Top 6 Quality

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Are We Still Top 6 Quality?

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Gatsby said:
Don’t agree. We have players who are capable of getting into most teams across Europe. We just need a couple of additions and a mentality change.

Kane, Son, Lo Celso, Ndombele all get into most teams. Bergwijn, Lucas, Sanchez, Lloris are good enough as well.

Players don’t become crap overnight. We just need a slight change in direction.
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Lucas is definitely not good enough, Ndombele hasn't come close that he is good enough yet. So that leaves maybe 6 guys (Sanchez is a very iffy inclusion) out of 11, 3 of which all play upfront, which is not close to good enough.

I said no but that is probably being a little pessimistic. I think we are definitely behind City, Liverpool, United and Chelsea. Then there is a group including Spurs, Leicester, Wolves, Woolwich (probably basically in that order) that are very similar. Based in the table this year you could easily put Leicester and Wolves ahead of us and call it a day.

Honestly I think that is Ndombele is anything close to the $60 million guy we signed then we are clearly 5th, if he is the bench warming dud that he has shown to be we are 8th. He is likely somewhere in between so we are around 6th/7th.

The good news is Leicester is likely going to lose some talent and not be able to replace it right away. Wolves are likely in the same boat and I am not sure they can use their agent connections to replace the talent so easily as they did when they first came up. So those are two teams that if we make smart additions we should be able to pass and get back to the top 6.

The bad news is we haven't shown a lot of ability to make those smart additions so even if they do drop off if we make bad decisions we will remain low down the table like we are now.
 
Igula said:
If you compare benches they blow us out of the water with the likes of Abraham, CHO, Loftus Cheek, Jorginho, Kovacic even a guy like Pedro.

Plus they have Ziyech and Werner already coming in for next plus credible rumours that they could add Havertz plus. So even if you take the generous (to us ) stance the the starting 11's are equal the bench and additions are clearly in Chelsea's favor. I would also guess that they have a lot more youth in key roles versus us so they also are likely to see a lot more improvement in their squad just through development than we are.
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I'd say that Alderweireld, Vertonghen, N'Dombele, Lamela, Alli, Skipp and Winks is at least as good as their backup players.


Yes, they might become better next season, but now they are not - player for player.
 
tbonepremier said:
I'd say that Alderweireld, Vertonghen, N'Dombele, Lamela, Alli, Skipp and Winks is at least as good as their backup players.


Yes, they might become better next season, but now they are not - player for player.
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I do not think they are close to as good as the Chelsea bench. Nobody nearly as dynamic as Abraham, CHO, Pedro. Toby and Jan too old at this point.

Right now, player for player they are clearly better on paper and certainly on the pitch as you can see in the difference in the standings. I don't even think it is debatable or that close.
 
Igula said:
I do not think they are close to as good as the Chelsea bench. Nobody nearly as dynamic as Abraham, CHO, Pedro. Toby and Jan too old at this point.

Right now, player for player they are clearly better on paper and certainly on the pitch as you can see in the difference in the standings. I don't even think it is debatable or that close.
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You are suffering from the they-are-all-better delusion.

Abraham is backup for Giroud, they guy who was not good enough for Woolwich when they were shit and lacked a proper striker. CHO is behind Willian in the pecking order, with a manager that prefers young englishmen, a Willian that has mostly had a Mouraish role in Chelsea, a Chelsea that has struggled greatly offensively when Hazard has been out of action in previous years. Pedro has also been a fringe player, even mostly behind Willian. Our bench players might not be as "dynamic" as Pedro, Abraham and CHO, but that is because Mourinho foolishly started all of Bergwijn, Son and Moura in that particular game.
 
tbonepremier said:
You are suffering from the they-are-all-better delusion.

Abraham is backup for Giroud, they guy who was not good enough for Woolwich when they were shit and lacked a proper striker. CHO is behind Willian in the pecking order, with a manager that prefers young englishmen, a Willian that has mostly had a Mouraish role in Chelsea, a Chelsea that has struggled greatly offensively when Hazard has been out of action in previous years. Pedro has also been a fringe player, even mostly behind Willian. Our bench players might not be as "dynamic" as Pedro, Abraham and CHO, but that is because Mourinho foolishly started all of Bergwijn, Son and Moura in that particular game.
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No delusion I just see the much better quality they have. Willian being compared to Moura is ridiculous. Willian is much better and much more valuable.
 
tommyboyspurs said:
he's older that's why. Moura is in his prime supposedly but I don't even know what his prime is. he's not Sao Paulo lucas that's for sure
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He is older, yes, but not old. Clubs do not scrap players if they are great. He hasn't started 25 games and came on as a sub in 7 games in the league (and 6+1 in CL) this season because he is great (more game time than in any season since 2015/16), but because they lack better options. So, Willian is not great, and he is still preferred over CHO and Pedro.
 
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tbonepremier said:
Last season we finished one point behind them in the league, we reached the CL final. Since then we lost Eriksen who was shit that season, they lost Hazard, their by far best player. We spent cash strengthening, they haven't been able to spend shit. The season before that, we finished 7 points ahead of them in the league. When did their squad suddenly turn so much better than ours?

They are performing better than us at the moment, but not because their squad is a lot better than ours.
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They added Abraham. Pulisic, Tomori and Mount. That is not insignificant. They also had those guys improve a ton where a lot of our team (Jan, Toby, Lloris) saw a lot of regression and stagnation. I can't think of a single player that improved since last season. So while Chelsea is having a lot of their guys improving we are regressing and it is easy to see where the gap begins to form.

Your attempt to shit on them with Willian shows the difference in our club. They are so strong and bringing in quality that they can let a player like Willian and still have a strong side. We have a much weaker player in Moura and not only does he not get replaced he is starting for us.
 
With only a few personnel changes and the correct tactics and attitude we could be vastly better than we are at present.

The difference a genuine top class DM would make, not Hojberg, would be all too apparent.

A backline protected by say Barrios with Skipp or Winks alongside would be totally different to what we have currently, even if the personnel stayed the same.

A 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-3-2 formation would be well suited.
 
Just going back to the DOF.

Yes Levy is pro-DOF. I am not really a fan of the DOF system. It requires a lot of investment in terms of time and money. Most players that are bought will be misses and the odd one will be a hit. Most of our recent years of success have been without a DOF. Redknapp and Poch did not want DOF and we had our best years under them. You could argue Jol/Arnesen was an exception to the rule.

I also think the terminology of a DOF and a Head Scout needs clarification. But essentially they do the same job. All we need is a Head Scout and a couple of understudies that see eye-to-eye with the Manager and what his style of play is.

We also need Levy to stay out of these conversations. If he wants to get involved then he can do the haggling with the price tag. But his effectiveness in this has waned as other chairmen and owners have wised up to his tactics of lowballing and want to get one over on Levy but not budging and playing hardball themselves. Sissoko transfer was a great example of this. Just to appease a few people, we spent £30 million on a mediocre player that Poch didn't want and it was pushed through in the dying minutes - desperation signing.
Just fucked off with the poor planning and leaving everything last minute.

I liken this situation to Dominic Cummings interfering with SAGE business. Just leave the football people to the football scouting, the business to Levy, SAGE to the scientists and Barnard Castle to Cummings. :mourglasses: (eye test anyone?)
 
deadleyledley said:
Just going back to the DOF.

Yes Levy is pro-DOF. I am not really a fan of the DOF system. It requires a lot of investment in terms of time and money. Most players that are bought will be misses and the odd one will be a hit. Most of our recent years of success have been without a DOF. Redknapp and Poch did not want DOF and we had our best years under them. You could argue Jol/Arnesen was an exception to the rule.

I also think the terminology of a DOF and a Head Scout needs clarification. But essentially they do the same job. All we need is a Head Scout and a couple of understudies that see eye-to-eye with the Manager and what his style of play is.

We also need Levy to stay out of these conversations. If he wants to get involved then he can do the haggling with the price tag. But his effectiveness in this has waned as other chairmen and owners have wised up to his tactics of lowballing and want to get one over on Levy but not budging and playing hardball themselves. Sissoko transfer was a great example of this. Just to appease a few people, we spent £30 million on a mediocre player that Poch didn't want and it was pushed through in the dying minutes - desperation signing.
Just fucked off with the poor planning and leaving everything last minute.

I liken this situation to Dominic Cummings interfering with SAGE business. Just leave the football people to the football scouting, the business to Levy, SAGE to the scientists and Barnard Castle to Cummings. :mourglasses: (eye test anyone?)
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Most of the players that were central to both's success were already here though (be it in the senior squad or the academy).

One of the key benefits of a DOF is that their is a broader focus as to what kind of players (and indeed managers) the club needs to adhere to it's overall footballing philosophy so that the transition between players and managers should be smoother and require less of a re-boot culture all the time. They're more than just a "head scout" as you suggest.... They essentially oversee the footballing identity of the club.

Like him or not, you'd have to wonder if we'd have hired Jose if we had a DOF in our ranks last year....?

Levy's negotiating skills have waned? ....Nah, we got GLC & Ndombele for a joined 100m when they each had 80m asking prices.

Sissoko: Constantly mentioned, yet never evidenced beyond than "yeh, but Poch wanted Mane"... Show me something which validates the claim that Poch "didn't want" Sissoko.
 
Airfixx said:
Most of the players that were central to both's success were already here though (be it in the senior squad or the academy).

One of the key benefits of a DOF is that their is a broader focus as to what kind of players (and indeed managers) the club needs to adhere to it's overall footballing philosophy so that the transition between players and managers should be smoother and require less of a re-boot culture all the time. They're more than just a "head scout" as you suggest.... They essentially oversee the footballing identity of the club.

Like him or not, you'd have to wonder if we'd have hired Jose if we had a DOF in our ranks last year....?

Levy's negotiating skills have waned? ....Nah, we got GLC & Ndombele for a joined 100m when they each had 80m asking prices.

Sissoko: Constantly mentioned, yet never evidenced beyond than "yeh, but Poch wanted Mane"... Show me something which validates the claim that Poch "didn't want" Sissoko.
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I dont think Poch will come out and say he doesn't want a player. But he did want Wijnaldum and got Sissoko instead.

I dont think JM is the kind of manager with a long term plan that warrants the DOF system.
 
deadleyledley said:
I dont think Poch will come out and say he doesn't want a player.
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Not publicly, no.

But in private when being consulted about the signing of a player? 100% yes.

But he did want Wijnaldum and got Sissoko instead.
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I'll ask again....

In any way shape or form can you credibly substantiate the repeated claim that Poch "didn't want" Sissoko.....?

I dont think JM is the kind of manager with a long term plan that warrants the DOF system.
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You're missing the point about Jose; a DOF would sit above a manager in terms of the footballing hierarchy.... If we had one; one would suspect we wouldn't have hired a manager with a distinctly different outlook on the game to the last.
 
Airfixx said:
Not publicly, no.

But in private when being consulted about the signing of a player? 100% yes.



I'll ask again....

In any way shape or form can you credibly substantiate the repeated claim that Poch "didn't want" Sissoko.....?



You're missing the point about Jose; a DOF would sit above a manager in terms of the footballing hierarchy.... If we had one; one would suspect we wouldn't have hired a manager with a distinctly different outlook on the game to the last.
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Impossible to provide that evidence, unless you get Poch to say it himself.

I get the point that a DOF sits above the manager. But JM isn't a man who will take orders from a DOF.

Hypothetically, if we got a DOF who would you get? Everyone talks about this Campos guy. I've never heard of him before we got Mourinho.
 
deadleyledley said:
Impossible to provide that evidence, unless you get Poch to say it himself.
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I understand that.... I don't expect cast iron evidence (hense I'm deliberately not using the word), just something more than "grrr Levy".... Let it go if you like; I don't wish to over-ride the point.

I get the point that a DOF sits above the manager. But JM isn't a man who will take orders from a DOF.
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It's not so much about taking orders from as it is working with..... A DOF isn't going to typically recruit a manager that doesn't share a similar vision to begin with. Pretty sure he's worked with DOFs at times in the past.... Certainly at Chavski and likely RM.

Hypothetically, if we got a DOF who would you get? Everyone talks about this Campos guy. I've never heard of him before we got Mourinho.
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Sorry fella, I don't know enough about the rest of Europe's clubs to have a suggestion.... I'm just keen strategically speaking.
 
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