Not the Rooney rule, past remarks by players and managers.
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Mackay hired by Wigan
- Thread starter Juicy Sushi
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Has this been proven?
I know the statistics are damning but it's not just in England. In France, a country with even more black national players than England (46% of current squad in France compared to England's 35%) 15 out of 15 French Ligue 1 managers are white. Makalele only lasting a few months in the top job the only black manager replaced a white manager. All 19 French managers in Ligue 2 are also white.
England is likely significantly better than most of Europe, as sad as that is.
Any sort of rule that gives someone more of a chance to land a job due to their race/gender in football is going them under undue pressure. Even if Bramble is the best candidate for the job the question marks are there "did he get it because he is black" sort of thing may not be openly said but will be thought by players, media, supporters & opposition.
Any evidence/examples? Impressive he got Cardiff promoted and out of PL relegation zone with no ability to coach, so imagine what he could do if he tried....
I don't think it's classified as harassment, as it wasn't directed at anyone - more third party commentary.
Hardly; he signed more than enough players that fit outside of a racist profile to come near an allegation of racist hiring practices. Look up Kim Bo-kyung's agent's response to the texts, also.
Redknapp had a string of allegations and arrests before he was Spurs manager and during. Can you point out where Mackay was arrested or convicted of anything (as so far, you're referencing conjecture and unfounded/unproven offences)
"The law firm are understood to have discovered a series of papers relating to certain transfers that were not included in official transfer documents. Investigators also discovered the authorisation of payments to agents for deals in which there was no evidence of their involvement. One £600,000 transfer included an additional £600,000 fee to an agent.
The transfer of Peter Odemwingie from West Bromwich Albion to Cardiff for £2.25m in September 2013 was among those investigated. Odemwingie was represented by Rob Segal and it is understood the two men are now in a legal dispute over the payment of agents’ fees, with the Nigeria striker’s subsequent move to Stoke also part of that dispute."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...st-homophobic-text-messages-time-Cardiff.html
Not yet proven in court, but if, as a purchasing agent of a company, you do side-deals with a supplier like that here in Canada, the company would sue for fraud, and criminal charges would follow.
"one of Mackay’s former players at Cardiff, Ibrahim Farah, Welsh of Somaliland heritage, tweeted that he had been referred to as the “wee Egyptian” by his former manager. Another depressing allegation about life inside a professional club. Farah, now at Carmarthen Town, later deleted the tweets but it is now inevitable that his evidence will be sought by the FA’s compliance team"
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...er-grim-day-for-english-football-9684712.html
Not a third party.
"An exchange with a young player who has a female agent makes reference to a sex act and states: ‘I hope she’s looking after your needs,’ the player is then told. ‘I bet you’d love a bounce on her falsies.’"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...st-homophobic-text-messages-time-Cardiff.html
Not a third party here either.
It wasn't sent to the agent, it was sent to Moody.
And hiring a non-white player doesn't mean you're not a racist if you're constantly using racial epithets towards and about them. The language itself is inexcusable.
The matter is still under investigation, so he hasn't been convicted yet. The offences are not unproven though. Mackay claims he's sorry about them. Which means that he acknowledges he said them. They are not actually conjecture, they are facts, agreed to by Mackay.
So, should those who are using racist hiring practices be allowed to continue them?
Who are racist in their hiring practices? I must have missed this story. Or is speculation based on numbers of black managers out there?
Or are you talking about Mackay's leaked texts?
There's not a lot of sense in trying to explain an alternative an opinion on these things to someone who displays an incorrigible mindset.
All I'd say is this: If someone looked at every text message and email you'd sent your mates/workmates in the last 5 years, would you still apply the same principles?
All I'd say is this: If someone looked at every text message and email you'd sent your mates/workmates in the last 5 years, would you still apply the same principles?
I think he's referring to the text, despite Mackay hiring probably more asian and black players than Caucasian.
Yup. I don't have anything to hide.
I don't really see how people can think that saying those things are ok. For some reason there's an entertainingly willful blindness at work. We've gone from "it's ok because it was private" (it wasn't, it was workplace related) to "can you say that you haven't said the same?" (Yes, I never have, and know no one who does) to "these things are unproven" (Mackay admitted to saying them). Why not just come out and say that you think racist abuse is ok?
Ah, but you know it isn't, just don't want to have to change.
It's not ok for West Ham to make anti-Semitic chants at Spurs games, but it's quite ok for someone to make anti-Semitic comments towards actual Jewish people? It's not like there was an actual reason why the word Yid was inverted by Spurs fans, after all.
First you claim there was no proof, now you claim I have an incorrigible mindset. If you think what Mackay said was ok, why not show some spine and stand up for your prejudice?
This is the part which I explained had no proof:
No evidence of fraud or committing 'criminal acts'.
You also quote things why I haven't said:
"it's ok because it was private"
"can you say that you haven't said the same?"
"these things are unproven"
The error you're facing is one of either misinterpreting what is being said, or making up your own mind on what is being said based on a pre-formed opinion.
What I have said is:
"I wouldn't condone the stuff that was said, but it left a lot of room for what you hear in most public places"
and
"A lot of it is just opinion formed on conjecture (as per normal) and there has been no punishment as yet from the FA, so not quite sure why condemnation should occur without conviction."
My point (that you're completely failing to grasp) is this: You're condemning a man for being hired in the profession in which he is qualified, with only the Daily Mail as your source of information, ignoring the fact that both football and society are full of inequality in several areas.
People often say things they don't mean, but people don't do things without meaning to (in my opinion). For this reason, I judge people on how they act and less on what they say, never mind 'text'.
You don't know the full facts and are being driven like a pedestrian into a fury, of which the source was the UK's worst sensationalist shit-stirring newspaper.
Dude, no offence, I normally agree with most of what you say, but what the hell? You're out to sea on this one mate. In particular the bit I've put in bold. I, for one, don't send text messages like that to people I work with or to friends. Racism and sexism are what they are. I don't buy the "he said it in private so what's the big deal" argument at all. Whether the leak was a nice thing to do is immaterial. Once the information is out there it destroys his credibility because no matter how unfair the reveal might seem it still proves he carries racist and sexism sentiments, and that throws into serious doubt his position since in football he has to work with, among others, ethnic and religious minorities.
The Three Degrees
I feel we need to see the woman in question and her "falsies" before passing judgement here.
It's missing the point though - at no point has the guy actually displayed any evidence of racist behaviour; he seems to get a pretty good report from people in the game, and there's a big different between being a racist/sexist and saying something regrettable in a text message (especially in frustration). I don't argue he shouldn't have done it, but I don't see how people think it should be 'career ending'. It's not comparable to Ron Atkinson. Hell, even Richard Keys still does his same job.
It surprises me how strong the stuff people like Frankie Boyle or Jimmy Carr say literally all the time, for a living, on DVDs, TV shows and more to actually try and be funny, and yet they never get a single word said against them or campaigns to move them out of their careers.
Yes, mate - I'm sure you've never made a derogatory comment in your entire 37 years of existence
A legal requirement surly??
Here's the lady in question
