Mourinho's preferred formation

  • The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...

    Get involved!

Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports

I can't believe there is enough a discussion in the dressing room at half time along the lines of 'be careful, lets keep a clean sheet' when we're beating Fulham 1-0 at home.

I think it has to be more a case of the players are scared of trying anything for fear of giving the ball away or making a mistake. Only a few weeks ago Mourinho publicly said Dele's flick on the half way line cost us a goal (complete bollocks by the way) which I just feels sums up why we are so dire to watch.

The depressing thing is he's not going to change now, he's created whatever we are seeing on the pitch now but he's too much of an egomaniac to acknowledge it so he'll throw players under the bus. The buck stops with the manager as far as I'm concerned.

We might just snatch a trophy if we can pull off a smash and grab against city but other than that we can belt up for a pretty joyless season of unadventurous football.
 
And with them, 3421 was even better.
I can't believe there is enough a discussion in the dressing room at half time along the lines of 'be careful, lets keep a clean sheet' when we're beating Fulham 1-0 at home.

I think it has to be more a case of the players are scared of trying anything for fear of giving the ball away or making a mistake. Only a few weeks ago Mourinho publicly said Dele's flick on the half way line cost us a goal (complete bollocks by the way) which I just feels sums up why we are so dire to watch.

The depressing thing is he's not going to change now, he's created whatever we are seeing on the pitch now but he's too much of an egomaniac to acknowledge it so he'll throw players under the bus. The buck stops with the manager as far as I'm concerned.

We might just snatch a trophy if we can pull off a smash and grab against city but other than that we can belt up for a pretty joyless season of unadventurous football.
That’s what I’ve been saying there must be some talk at HT or instructions in the 2nd from the touch line to not sit deep. Although don’t see it during the game jose changing it or barking at the team to push forward. If what says is true that he doesn’t tell them to sit so deep then why in the hell not is not barking instructions at them from the touch line or when there is a beak in play telling one of the players. I personally think it’s BS. I think the Ali comment is spot on. If things don’t improve in the next few games I bet there will be a few players breaking rank. PEH alluded to it in his PM interview even sissoko is saying it.
 
If it leads to change of approach and mentality and sissoko being dropped then that is a result. However sissoko is a jose fave like dier so they can be crap as hell and still play and not get criticised.
 
I just can't believe that when the "serial winner" has Dele, Lamela, Moura, Vicinius and Bale to choose from he decides that Winks and Sissoko would do a better job than any of them.

We need goalscorers on the pitch outside of Kane and Son.
 
My 2 cents:

Mourinho is manager who has a clear formation and style of play in mind. While he may compromise in the short term, he will keep working towards transforming his squad into what he wants. Thus, Mourinho is more suited to big clubs where he can acquire the players he needs/wants. I think Mourinho is good in identifying the needs of his team, but has questionable judgment on transfer targets and their valuations.

Mourinho is very good coaching the defensive and organizational side but less so on the offensive side. He can make average defenders look solid, but his teams attack depends heavily on the talent and creativity of the players at his disposal.

His base formation (>70% of matches) is a modified 4-2-3-1 (LWF/RWF on one side with RM/LM on the other, and an advanced CM instead of a true #10 or trequartista), while his backup formation is 4-3-3. Key difference is that he swaps a box2box midfielder in exchange for one of the four attacking players. Essentially 4-2-3-1 if he expects to dominate the game and 4-3-3 when he wants to pack the midfield and rely more on counter attacking. The most he has come close to having his ideal squad was at real madrid.

In terms of specific roles and players:

GK- beyond shot stopping ability, ability to control the box against crosses and kick accurate long ball. Cech was probably his best fit. Lloris is ok but at 34, he is probably needing replacement soon.

CBs - Physically and aerially dominant, both offensively and defensively. Needs at least one of them to have great pace to recover when playing a highline and one has the ability to bring the ball out of the defence. Mourinho has had a lot of great CB pairings (Ramos+Pepe/Varane, Lucio+Samuel, Terry+Carvalho). Unfortunately, the current options fall short and its probably one of his targets for the summer. Prime Toby would have been a good fit.

RB/LB - solid defensively but able to get forward and provide width for the attack. Should have good height for set pieces. Zanetti is prime example. Reguilon is a good fit (though a bit light on the physical side) but think Madrid will likely buy him back. Aurier and Doherty are good on paper but neither has been convincing. Aurier would be a good fit if he could improve his delivery and stop having brain farts. Doherty might deliver if he could keep himself in the lineup long enough to get in form.

DM+CM (dual pivot) - Apart from their defensive duties in shielding the defence, he requires one of them to be a metronome i.e. playmaker who can dictate the pace of the game, and one of them must be able to join the attack/get into the box. So it could be a DLP+ B2B or a pure DM+ playmaker CM. At madrid, Alonso was the DLP while Khedira was B2B. Currently Hojbjerg is the DM and Winks the CM. Hojbjerg is a good fit but Winks is not good enough for his role both defensively and offensively. Lo Celso doesnt have the range and vision but may be a better option than Winks

*B2B (2nd CM for the 4-3-3) - high work rate, physical CM, capable of man-marking a star player. It was lassana diara at Madrid. Sissoko fits the role almost perfectly

AM - Mourinho himself describes his ideal player as not a #8 and not a #10 but a #8.5. Essentiallly a CM with great creativity in the final 3rd (able to provide the defence splitting pass). Sneijder is probably the best he has had, while the current De Bruyne would also fit the bill. Ndombele and Lo Celso are the current choices, with the former being ahead.

RM/LM - Expected to be more of a midfielder/winger (like in a 4-4-2) than a forward i.e. more assists than goals, and helps with creativity in the midfield. Di Maria is probably the best example. Bergwin seems to top the list currently but he is not really the right fit. Lo Celso doesnt have the pace and is more suited centrally but might be the short term fix.

LWF/RWF - Expected to be more of a second striker that gets a lot of goals. CR is the archetype, but Son is a very good fit.

CF - physical, comfortable playing his back to goal, great hold-up play and clinical. I think Kane and Ibrahimovic are the best he has had. He can have no complaints (no coach can)
Base on your analysis, do you think we are not performing well due to the quality of our squad ?
 
Kane doesn't play like that anymore though, and any tactic has to accommodate him, he's dropping back into the AM role.

This means we only have Son making runs beyond the opposition defence, its too easy to defend against.

We need to play either a 433 or 523 with the front 3 looking like
........Kane
Xxx...........Son
Kane dropping deep is out of necessity. If the midfield was dominant and creating chances consistently, Kane would simply have to be getting on the end of them. Mourinho likes his #9 to focus on scoring. In fact, it was his biggest issue with Benzema, who he believed spent too much time outside of the box trying to be a creator, than being in the box finishing off chances.

Without a quality midfield, there is no real buildup in the attack, and the team has devolved into trying to get the ball into the final third as quickly as possible and letting Kane create chances. It was a similar situation in Mourinho's first season at ManU, where Ibra became the main creative force. It simply a short term fix and not sustainable long term.

The problem is in the midfield and that is where the solution should be applied. The rest of the team shouldnt be screwed up to make up for the failings of the midfield.
 
Kane dropping deep is out of necessity. If the midfield was dominant and creating chances consistently, Kane would simply have to be getting on the end of them. Mourinho likes his #9 to focus on scoring. In fact, it was his biggest issue with Benzema, who he believed spent too much time outside of the box trying to be a creator, than being in the box finishing off chances.

Without a quality midfield, there is no real buildup in the attack, and the team has devolved into trying to get the ball into the final third as quickly as possible and letting Kane create chances. It was a similar situation in Mourinho's first season at ManU, where Ibra became the main creative force. It simply a short term fix and not sustainable long term.

The problem is in the midfield and that is where the solution should be applied. The rest of the team shouldnt be screwed up to make up for the failings of the midfield.

Nope, Kane is playing that way to prolong his career and avoid injuries. He's never going to be the no.9 running in behind defences anymore - he's not quick enough to do that now either.

You can't equate everyone and everything to past Mourinho teams. There are too many other factors.
 
Nope, Kane is playing that way to prolong his career and avoid injuries. He's never going to be the no.9 running in behind defences anymore - he's not quick enough to do that now either.

You can't equate everyone and everything to past Mourinho teams. There are too many other factors.
Giroud at 34 is not running behind any defences either and he is still a #9. Ibra more so at 39

The idea that playing like a #10 is going to prolong Kane's career is silly. It is more likely to expose him to more tackles and puts him at higher risk of injuries.

Mourinho expects his players to strictly play to his instructions (the pros vs cons is a different debate). Any player that doesnt, irrespective of status, gets dropped (and there is a decent list of club stars that have gone that route). Kane will not be dropping deep to pick up the ball if Mourinho did not want him to do so.

When Mourinho's team cant control the midfield, he has consistently resorted to the long ball to his #9. It is also why he always likes to play with a traditional #9 that can hold up the ball and play with his back to goal (Drogba, Costa, Ibra, Milito, Lukaku) It is a consistent pattern with Mourinho and the current tottenham is not an exception.
 
Thoughtthis might be a better place for this
He picked him ahead of Sissoko in THREE out of 18 league games. And in two of those starts, Lo Celso was out injured. Winks has been left out of the entire squad the same amount of times he's started games this season.

That isn't "competing in rotation" - that's a fringe player if I've ever seen one. He's pretty much an afterthought.

Sissoko has started 12 of the possible 17 he's been available for. Which is DOUBLE the amount of games Winks has started.

Don't give me Lo Celso has never played in that role either. He literally started as a CM2 against Liverpool AT Anfield. When he could have quite easily played Harry Winks there. It was one of the rare times he was actually in the squad after all.

I don't mind Sissoko or Winks - neither however are good enough to start games for Tottenham. Is Skipp? Only time will tell. But I'd much rather he was in our squad and given a chance in the first 11 than either of those two.

Ndombele, Hojbjerg, Lo Celso, Skipp and a new signing (preferably Sabitzer) should mean absolutely zero minutes go to Sissoko and Winks continues being our 6th choice midfielder.

But like the Jose Mourinho thread, this is going way off topic.
Against Liverpool, we specifically played a 4-4-2 and GLC started instead of Ndombele. So, neither Ndombele nor GLC has played in a double pivot under Mourinho.

In the PL, we have played our base formation (4-2-3-1) in 13 of 18 games and backup formation (4-3-3) 2x, with 3-4-2-1 and 3-4-1-2 haven been used once each. Of the 13 games, PEH started all 13 as one of the DM while Sissoko started 9 and winks started 4 games in the other DM spot. No other player has played in that position. Sissoko is the curently preferred starter but Winks is in the core rotation and the direct replacement . GLC being available or not does not change this

Skipp will have to first show in the summer that he is at least as good as winks but it is almost impossible for Mourinho to go into a season in which he hopes to be competing for the PL title to rely on a player with no top flight experience to be his starter for that role. Thus it is more than likely that a quality DLP joins in this window or the summer.

(Personally think Eriksen is worth a try in the role for the rest of the season and if it doesnt work then a summer buy. But quality players in that role are expensive and a foreign transfer may not deliver in his first season.)
 
Thoughtthis might be a better place for this

Against Liverpool, we specifically played a 4-4-2 and GLC started instead of Ndombele. So, neither Ndombele nor GLC has played in a double pivot under Mourinho.

Bollocks.

Lo Celso played a double pivot with Winks when we beat Man City 2-0 last season under Mourinho and was arguably the best player on the pitch.

It was that game alone that I realised Lo Celso could play instead of Sissoko in a double pivot and we'd look absolutely no worse defensively.

In the PL, we have played our base formation (4-2-3-1) in 13 of 18 games and backup formation (4-3-3) 2x, with 3-4-2-1 and 3-4-1-2 haven been used once each. Of the 13 games, PEH started all 13 as one of the DM while Sissoko started 9 and winks started 4 games in the other DM spot. No other player has played in that position. Sissoko is the curently preferred starter but Winks is in the core rotation and the direct replacement . GLC being available or not does not change this

Skipp will have to first show in the summer that he is at least as good as winks but it is almost impossible for Mourinho to go into a season in which he hopes to be competing for the PL title to rely on a player with no top flight experience to be his starter for that role. Thus it is more than likely that a quality DLP joins in this window or the summer.

(Personally think Eriksen is worth a try in the role for the rest of the season and if it doesnt work then a summer buy. But quality players in that role are expensive and a foreign transfer may not deliver in his first season.)

Eriksen can get to fuck.
 
Bollocks.

Lo Celso played a double pivot with Winks when we beat Man City 2-0 last season under Mourinho.




Eriksen can get to fuck.
Last season? Moving goal posts now are we? smh

You dont have to like Eriksen but he is likely the best option for a short term fix to the ball retention issues plaguing the team. It is almost impossible to get a bargain playmaker in the January window.
 
Last season? Moving goal posts now are we? smh

You dont have to like Eriksen but he is likely the best option for a short term fix to the ball retention issues plaguing the team. It is almost impossible to get a bargain playmaker in the January window.

You said neither Lo Celso or Ndombele have played a double pivot under Mourinho - Lo Celso clearly has.

It's stupid to ever think he wouldn't have played more games alongside Hojbjerg (Especially ahead of Winks) if he hadn't spent the whole season practically injured or unfit.

Again, I don't mind Eriksen. But sadly towards the end of his tenure here, he had shown up to be nothing more than a systems player who performed when the system was working well. As soon as Dembele stopped holding that midfield together, those who weren't truly elite (Son and Kane) pretty much went down plenty of notches (Eriksen and Dele, I am looking at you).

Bringing in Eriksen wouldn't sort shit out. He'd probably go back on set piece duty and continue to hit the first man and he'd continue to jog around the middle of the field whilst he sees the ball sail over his head whilst getting in Kane's way.
 
You said neither Lo Celso or Ndombele have played a double pivot under Mourinho - Lo Celso clearly has.

It's stupid to ever think he wouldn't have played more games alongside Hojbjerg (Especially ahead of Winks) if he hadn't spent the whole season practically injured or unfit.

Again, I don't mind Eriksen. But sadly towards the end of his tenure here, he had shown up to be nothing more than a systems player who performed when the system was working well. As soon as Dembele stopped holding that midfield together, those who weren't truly elite (Son and Kane) pretty much went down plenty of notches (Eriksen and Dele, I am looking at you).

Bringing in Eriksen wouldn't sort shit out. He'd probably go back on set piece duty and continue to hit the first man and he'd continue to jog around the middle of the field whilst he sees the ball sail over his head whilst getting in Kane's way.
The context of the discussion was this PL season. At no point was any reference being made to last season appearances, or other competitions, until you decided to move the goal posts. If you want to talk about last season, winks I believe started about 16 of 26 games under Mourinho. Does that help your argument?

Did you watch Eriksen play as a DLP for Inter? Do you have a better solution to the problem? If no playmaker is brought in, we will likely continue to struggle to put away weaker teams and the pressure will start to tell as the season progresses.

Mourinho is not Poch, and nobody is going to 'jog around the middle of the field whilst he sees the ball sail over his head whilst getting in Kane's way.' and stay on the pitch
 
The context of the discussion was this PL season. At no point was any reference being made to last season appearances, or other competitions, until you decided to move the goal posts. If you want to talk about last season, winks I believe started about 16 of 26 games under Mourinho. Does that help your argument?

Did you watch Eriksen play as a DLP for Inter? Do you have a better solution to the problem? If no playmaker is brought in, we will likely continue to struggle to put away weaker teams and the pressure will start to tell as the season progresses.

Mourinho is not Poch, and nobody is going to 'jog around the middle of the field whilst he sees the ball sail over his head whilst getting in Kane's way.' and stay on the pitch

I mean actually the original context of the discussion was Skipp replacing Sissoko in the squad. Which is actually discussing next season. But whatever.

I watch more Inter Milan games than probably most on this forum. He's been absolutely woeful for them.

Do I have a better solution to what problem? The way we play?

Yes. Bringing in a manager who wants to actually play football and maximise the strengths we have around the squad is the best solution.

However, I tend to back our managers and have been a Mourinho backer since he was appointed. And getting us to a cup final and in a decent position in the league with the game in hand means we probably can't 100% complain.

It's cute though that you think bringing back a washed Eriksen would suddenly mean we will play through midfield and see some excitement in our play. We saw Eriksen under Mourinho. It wasn't pretty.
 
Back
Top Bottom