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Ex-Spurs Player Moussa Sissoko

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bus-conductor said:
This old "use my eyes" chestnut. We all use our eyes. Analysts and scouts also use their eyes. But unless you have the ability to mathematically calculate a vast number of actions, outcomes and their ramifications, how they effect the dynamics around them etc etc, your eyes won't tell you enough.
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I am sorry but no. Just no.

numbers and stats are for scouts and analysts. Managers and coaches look at what a player actually does. How they move, how they play and so on and figure out what role they can perform in.

I don't think Pochettino is particularly worried about Sissoko/Winks/Skipp's stats when he makes his selection but rather other tangiable attributes.

bunburyist bunburyist nailed it really in his post. Stats will only get you so far and give you maybe 50% of the picture regarding a player
 
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Bazali said:
Well said Sir

Quite simply he fulfills the role Poch wants him to play and even if Big Vic and Dier get fit again which I hope they do I can’t see Sissoko losing his place in the side
Love the guy, his athleticism, attitude and energy

Most of Blakey’s posts are quite informative and interesting until Sissoko is mentioned and then he goes off on one
It’s quite bizarre

I mentioned the CL game against Inter
If it wasn’t for Sissoko making a fantastic run into their half and into their box we would have been dumped out of the competition because we didn’t look like scoring otherwise
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But athleticism and energy are not unique qualities. They are in abundance, even on Hackney marshes. Great, he did a good thing in a game (even then you are slightly over stating - he ran about 15 yards and passed the ball to someone who then set up someone else - if that's what makes him a great footballer then Dier's Pirlo). We've got an 18yo who's had two starts who's actually got 2 assists, one of them a lovely through ball that pierced a defence, Another kid who's made 3 starts and has 5 assists and he's a RB.

If he was constantly doing great stuff it could possibly mitigate all the stuff he's not doing very well. Bit like Lamela or Son in the early days. But he isn't. Even you can see that. You like him because he's a trier, I get that, but he's not good enough for "this level". Nowhere near.
 
Stopspot said:
I am sorry but no. Just no.

numbers and stats are for scouts and analysts. Managers and coaches look at what a player actually does. How they move, how they play and so on and figure out what role they can perform in.

I don't think Pochettino is particularly worried about Sissoko/Winks/Skipp's stats when he makes his selection but rather other tangiable attributes.

bunburyist bunburyist nailed it really in his post. Stats will only get you so far and give you maybe 50% of the picture regarding a player
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I don't know anyone - even professional sports analysts - who think that stats are everything. Why does this hackneyed old mantra still get trotted out, every time stats prove someone's wrong.

As soon as stats don't tell you what you want to hear, it's "beware", "pinch of salt" "but but but...my eyes".

The stats Ive posted corroborate what my eyes have been telling me (and Ive been telling you).

And for the record, I obviously meant he's not a good footballer at this level. And no, I don't think he was entirely to blame for Newcastle getting relegated. Only maybe 8-10%.
 
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bus-conductor said:
The guys at Statsbomb do this for a living. As well as selling their models and data to other related industry clients, they work for clubs (including PSG right now I think) on various facets of performance and scouting analytics.

They would be producing much more than these radars for clients, they are just a nicely packaged format that gives a bit more depth than the usual "tackles" "key passes" etc.

Most clubs - even lower down - are using analytics now for performance and recruitment. As they should.

GDN

This old "use my eyes" chestnut. We all use our eyes. Analysts and scouts also use their eyes. But unless you have the ability to mathematically calculate a vast number of actions, outcomes and their ramifications, how they effect the dynamics around them etc etc, your eyes won't tell you enough.

We all use our eyes, but our eyes have a habit of telling us what we want them to tell us. We don't notice the things that contradict our pre-conceived notion but focus on anything that supports what we want to be true. Humans are brilliant at this. It's called confirmation bias.

I've pointed out numerous examples of Sissoko doing things badly. Real things in real time. Often in the same game. But I get accused of having an agenda and that he is in fact MOTM...again....

So, I've highlighted real incidents - seen with my eyes and typed with my hands - but Ive now also provided actual in depth data that supports my eyes and my opinion.

If your eyes are still telling you that Sissoko is actually really good at stuff, and doing lots of it, then I'd suggest a big drop of Optrex.
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i haven't said sissoko is brilliant mate, just that stat based arguments are fundamentally flawed because they are too finite. Personally i don't really care about whole polarizing debate. i'm probably one of the few in the middle that just thinks he's doing "ok". Some good games, some not so good. definitely playing above expectations, but i want more for the club - that's not a criticism of him, i love his attitude and enthusiasm, and given our midfield crisis thank fuck he's stepped up. Next season i expect better players to be lining up there though.
 
I don't know why people seem to enjoy being over critical of a player who has improved a thousand per cent and is playing his part in our successes this year. We can't operate with a team of Kanes, Eriksens, Hugos or any one player. Balance is the key of any successful team, and I believe Moussa does his bit very well. Maybe not every game, but not one single player does.
 
Stopspot said:
I am sorry but LOL. Big fucking LOL.

numbers and stats are for scouts and analysts. Managers and coaches look at what a player actually does. How they move, how they play and so on and figure out what role they can perform in.

I don't think Pochettino is particularly worried about Sissoko/Winks/Skipp's stats when he makes his selection but rather other tangiable attributes.

bunburyist bunburyist nailed it really in his post. Stats will only get you so far and give you maybe 50% of the picture regarding a player
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Stats wont even give you 50% of the picture if you are using it wrong. If anything it will show you opposite of whats actually going on.

A passes to B in a shit position, B passes back to A, A passes to C in a shit position , C passes back to A. Repeat this many times in a match and you will see A collect tons of passes just like Winks does. His passing is absolutely woeful , but he remains superbusy doing nothing much of any use. Silly stat lovers think Winks did some great passing but it was mindless , to the nearest guy , hotpotato stuff where he had no intention of actually doing anything good with the ball.

Sissoko on the other hand does not get involved in mindless passing too much , instead moves the ball to improve our attack. Of course he loses it a few times too but at least its because he has tried to do something positive with it. Thats why he is involved in lots and lots of our goals either with a pass or dribble or tackle.

Theres a reason why he was picked from our whole team for Premier League November Player of the month. Usually people outside a club only notice our players when theyve scored a goal or have a high 'stat' in something which Sissoko doesnt have, so they must have seen how good he is playing right now. Hated him in his first season, not so great last year either, but since 3 months or so hes been nothing short of brilliant. There really is no need to whine about him still when hes been our best CM this season. Just shows ignorance and an inability to watch football.
 
bus-conductor said:
Yes. That’s it. Ignore real cold hard evidence that indicate his poor level of performance. Because your alternative “fact” that disproves this is that “no poor players ever play in the PL”.

You’re right, they do get found out. Often evidenced by them being relegated. Oh hang on....

I would suggest that the reasons we are still seeing seeing him is that our manager insisted we purchase him for 55m in fees and wages, then couldn’t get anyone to take him off our hands at even knockdown price and now has a midfield crisis partly due to the fact that he couldn’t buy anyone in the summer because he’d spent all the money on non hg duds lie Sissoko.

My allegiance is to Spurs, not any one player. If I can see a player not doing a very good job for Spurs, that concerns me more than how I’m perceived by that players fan club.

Ignore every piece of evidence if you want. Believe what you want. Fairies, Father Christmas and Sissoko. I’m more in to realism myself.
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Looks like you’re on your own mate

You’re not the only one on here with allegiance to Spurs and most of us think Sissoko is doing a great job for us

Have a look at yourself
 
adasai said:
Stats wont even give you 50% of the picture if you are using it wrong. If anything it will show you opposite of whats actually going on.

A passes to B in a shit position, B passes back to A, A passes to C in a shit position , C passes back to A. Repeat this many times in a match and you will see A collect tons of passes just like Winks does. His passing is absolutely woeful , but he remains superbusy doing nothing much of any use. Silly stat lovers think Winks did some great passing but it was mindless , to the nearest guy , hotpotato stuff where he had no intention of actually doing anything good with the ball.

Sissoko on the other hand does not get involved in mindless passing too much , instead moves the ball to improve our attack. Of course he loses it a few times too but at least its because he has tried to do something positive with it. Thats why he is involved in lots and lots of our goals either with a pass or dribble or tackle.

Theres a reason why he was picked from our whole team for Premier League November Player of the month. Usually people outside a club only notice our players when theyve scored a goal or have a high 'stat' in something which Sissoko doesnt have, so they must have seen how good he is playing right now. Hated him in his first season, not so great last year either, but since 3 months or so hes been nothing short of brilliant. There really is no need to whine about him still when hes been our best CM this season. Just shows ignorance and an inability to watch football.
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Wise words.

Football is a people sport. Managers and coaches care more about how these people behave and perform on the training ground and during games than if they meet some stat quota. Stats are a compliment if anything.

If one focuses solely on the stats in sports you miss the forest for all the trees.
 
adasai said:
Stats wont even give you 50% of the picture if you are using it wrong. If anything it will show you opposite of whats actually going on.
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Stop with this stupid nonsense about "stats tell you the opposite". That's bullshit designed to baffle fools. Stats need contextualising always. But here they are very straightforward. And they are very unambiguous.

How about this for a concept. Sometimes, just maybe, stats also just show us exactly what is going on ?

Those statsbomb data sets aren't just isolated random quantitive stuff. They qualify it too. Pressure Adjust takes into account the type of team a player plays on and that teams general approach, the X/G stats measure the quality of outcome, not just the quantity.

And I provided direct comparison data for the two other players playing in our midfield. So you can actually see that Sissoko doesn't just tackle/intercept less than most in our team, he applies pressure poorly. He doesn't just not create anything, he doesn't even provide quality build up passes.



adasai said:
A passes to B in a shit position, B passes back to A, A passes to C in a shit position , C passes back to A. Repeat this many times in a match and you will see A collect tons of passes just like Winks does. His passing is absolutely woeful , but he remains superbusy doing nothing much of any use. Silly stat lovers think Winks did some great passing but it was mindless , to the nearest guy , hotpotato stuff where he had no intention of actually doing anything good with the ball.
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This is very typical of someone that really doesn't understand football or the difference between what Winks is supposed to be doing and what Sissoko is, or someone with a real agenda. You've been criticising Winks from the first ball he's kicked.

No-one thinks Winks is Pirlo. Most acknowledge we will probably need to upgrade him too at some point. But unlike Sissoko, he's actually fulfilling his remit to a reasonable standard. He is continually showing for the ball (not hiding from it and pointing like Sissoko often does) meaning we can play out from the back (something we were struggling to do earlier in the season) and he's moving it quickly and efficiently, helping our transition. It's the 8's jobs (Eriksen and Sissoko) to transition and "progress" us further, but guess what, Sissoko from an advanced position actually progresses us the same as Winks - see the data ("deep progression" into the final third - both average 6.3 per game - Winks also passes forwards more) go fucking figure eh?

These stats aren't telling us the opposite of what's true, just the opposite of your "truth".


adasai said:
Sissoko on the other hand does not get involved in mindless passing too much , instead moves the ball to improve our attack. Of course he loses it a few times too but at least its because he has tried to do something positive with it. Thats why he is involved in lots and lots of our goals either with a pass or dribble or tackle.
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I think you are mistaking him for Eriksen.
 
bus-conductor said:
I don't know anyone - even professional sports analysts - who think that stats are everything. Why does this hackneyed old mantra still get trotted out, every time stats prove someone's wrong.

As soon as stats don't tell you what you want to hear, it's "beware", "pinch of slat" "but but but...my eyes".

The stats Ive posted corroborate what my eyes have been telling me (and Ive been telling you).

And for the record, I obviously meant he's not a good footballer at this level. And no, I don't think he was entirely to blame for Newcastle getting relegated. Only maybe 8-10%.
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So what stats did you use to get the 8-10% blame factor in Sissoko sending Newcastle down?

You’re not making sense
 
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