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Transfers Summer Transfer Thread 2023! - Closed (Maybe)

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McCOYS said:
Everything he said in that press conference was correct.
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This x 100

Whether this ultimately cost Conte his job perhaps we will never know, but i truly beleive that it shook Levy to the extent that he had to do something, finally understood that no manager could polish a turd of the size of this squad and decided a complete change was required.

My observation is that Levy should have realised this after the CL Final.

Great financial brain, piss poor at player recruitment and on the pitch football management in general.
 
Spursidol said:
Good post.

Personally think that post Poch, when our squad was on its last legs (and Poch seemed to have lost squad from March 2019 onwards hence bad PL results, squad just contested CL matches) and appalling squad management from 2016-20 both in squad buying and fauilutre to bring youngsters through, we needed a 'project manager' to rebuild Spurs.

Mourhino was hired I suspect to see if he could get the squad together and start a rebuild (although with covid always difficult) objective plus get europe, preferably CL. However he reverted to his defensive type after hammering ManU 6-1, and with it results deteriorated.

Rather than hiring Conte I'd certainly have gone for the 'project manager' rather than the 'star manager to get CL' ...... but I think too many fans would have been saying 'Levy's gone for cheap option' .

Indeed Eddie Howe who joined Newcastle in 2021 a year after leaving Bournemouth would have been a good choice - and I see similarities with Ange in the appointment of a manager more likely to build the squad from the bottom up.

But we are where we are, but fans probably as guilty as Ley in going for Conte .......
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You make some good points, but my take is somewhat different.

I suspect Levy hired Mourinho because he thought we still had a top 4 / CL challenging squad. Indeed, IIRC Mourinho & Levy discussed the overall quality of our squad early doors, & the Special One was positive.

It was clear Poch had lost his MoJo after the CL final loss. So the existential choice facing Levy was: could a proven elite coach win with our squad? Or had the squad peaked, necessitating a rebuild with the loss of some key players?

I'm not surprised Levy opted to hire a supposedly elite winning coach to see if they could rejuvenate our players and return them to peak Poch. There were rumours he discussed the situation with Ancelotti, before hiring Mourinho.

The loan signing of Bale, allegedly a Levy rather than Mourinho initiative, suggests Levy thought we were good enough to integrate an elite luxury player, who no longer trusted his body & fitness on a regular basis. Mourinho clearly decided otherwise. And ultimately, as you say, Mourinho's negative instincts resurfaced despite some matches where a front 3 of Son - Kane - Bale looked unstoppable.

For me, the big mistakes Levy made were once Mourinho was sacked. That was the time to initiate the rebuild. Instead we had the Nuno clusterfuck, and the Conte meltdown.

And now we are back to Ange the project manager, building a new positive culture and a new team.

At least two years overdue.

And because it is a full rebuild, I think Kane will be sold to the highest overseas bidder this summer.
 
GeorgeGraham said:
Levy?

Wrong on all counts.
His great financial brain has left the new stadium without a sponsor since it opened.
He doesn’t recruit the players and certainly doesn’t have anything to do with ‘on the pitch management’.
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On the naming rights for the stadium, Levy was never going to get a multi-million pound sponsorship contract during and post Covid. To suggest that he has not made a financially huge success of the new stadium is plain daft, that fact is there for all to see.

"On the pitch management" includes purchase of players, and financial allocation of purchase budgets.

Don't ever try to convince anyone that he has no control over every cheque that forms part of a players recruitment. No player gets brought into the club without his ok.
 
LeParisien said:
Nice post.

I agree that it’s of course too early to judge Ange.

My principal and somewhat devastating critique of Conte’s coaching is this. When he took over he put in place patterns of play that were unusual and effective. We picked up 5 more points than Woolwich in the 18 games Conte was in charge that season which is excellent given he came mid-season and there was cause for optimism.

The problem is that those SAME patterns of play were being used the following season. Specifically, as late as Milan away, Kane was still dropping into the space to receive the ball from the defence to play a first time flicked ball into the wide forward. To jog your memory, this was being used very early in Conte’s reign and was how we scored Kulu’s first goal for the club against Man City.

People praised Kjaer for his performance against Kane that night but the truth is it’s very easy to spot Conte’s patterns of play. They have shock factor for a few months but at any level where teams can scout, they CANNOT be used for one year +. They need to be constantly refreshed to retain that shock factor.

That’s one example but there are other examples of stale, predictable patterns of play being used. Part of my optimism was that after the first half season, he would renew the playing approach given a full preseason. He did not do that and there are no mitigating factors for that summer.

I know Conte had some mitigation - his last 6 months would have been tough on anyone. But this is also a profound criticism of his coaching methodology that runs deeper than any extenuating circumstances.

Ange’s philosophy is something like the opposite. Instead of intensely drilling specific patterns of play until they’re automatic, he is teaching positional play. It takes a lot longer for players to develop the cues and intelligence to play it well - some players probably aren’t capable - but when it’s in place it’s far harder to stop. It’s a more sustainable strategy.
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I called this very spot early on in the Conte reign. We were all bubbling after we pipped Arse. I like most thought wow he is a sharp coach got them patterns drilled in less than a half a season wait till he has a pre-season and the players have learned the 'Book'. Only there was no Book....there was a pamphlet which every one from Leggo boi, to Thomas Frank speed read. Within six months we were pathetic. And shockingly easy to beat.

I watched teams wait for Kane to drop and the ball start to move along the centerbacks, then boom they were on him and we'd lost possession. I was screaming at the bench as we got bitch slapped at the Emirates. It was a farce Conte is a fraud. I know it will take time but I am so happy we have a coach with actual player improvement at his core and tactical flexibility.
 
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ThePreacher said:
On the naming rights for the stadium, Levy was never going to get a multi-million pound sponsorship contract during and post Covid. To suggest that he has not made a financially huge success of the new stadium is plain daft, that fact is there for all to see.

"On the pitch management" includes purchase of players, and financial allocation of purchase budgets.

Don't ever try to convince anyone that he has no control over every cheque that forms part of a players recruitment. No player gets brought into the club without his ok.
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On the pitch management by its very definition describes what happens on the pitch. Control of the budget isn’t the same as player recruitment. Levy doesn’t recruit a single player himself.
 
Elias said:
You make some good points, but my take is somewhat different.

I suspect Levy hired Mourinho because he thought we still had a top 4 / CL challenging squad. Indeed, IIRC Mourinho & Levy discussed the overall quality of our squad early doors, & the Special One was positive.

It was clear Poch had lost his MoJo after the CL final loss. So the existential choice facing Levy was: could a proven elite coach win with our squad? Or had the squad peaked, necessitating a rebuild with the loss of some key players?

I'm not surprised Levy opted to hire a supposedly elite winning coach to see if they could rejuvenate our players and return them to peak Poch. There were rumours he discussed the situation with Ancelotti, before hiring Mourinho.

The loan signing of Bale, allegedly a Levy rather than Mourinho initiative, suggests Levy thought we were good enough to integrate an elite luxury player, who no longer trusted his body & fitness on a regular basis. Mourinho clearly decided otherwise. And ultimately, as you say, Mourinho's negative instincts resurfaced despite some matches where a front 3 of Son - Kane - Bale looked unstoppable.

For me, the big mistakes Levy made were once Mourinho was sacked. That was the time to initiate the rebuild. Instead we had the Nuno clusterfuck, and the Conte meltdown.

And now we are back to Ange the project manager, building a new positive culture and a new team.

At least two years overdue.

And because it is a full rebuild, I think Kane will be sold to the highest overseas bidder this summer.
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I'm pretty much on board with everything there, but I'm pretty sure Kane will stay. I just don't see any option that makes sense, unless he's simply not the person I think he is (and what do I know?)

I think he'll stay and sign a new contract in about 2 weeks.
 
Shotgunofmichalebrow said:
I called this very spot early on in the Conte reign. We were all bubbling after we pipped Arse. I like most thought wow he is a sharp coach got them patterns drilled in less than a half a season wait till he has a pre-season and the players have learned the 'Book'. Only there was no Book....there was a pamphlet which every one from Leggo boi, to Thomas Frank speed read. Within six months we were pathetic. Abd shockingly easy to beat.

I watched teams wait for Kane to drop and the ball start to move along the centerbacks, then boom they were on him and we'd lost possession. I was screaming at bench as we got bitch slapped at the Emirates. It was a farce Conte is a fraud. I know it will take time but I am so happy we have a coach with actual player improvement at his core and tactical flexibility.
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It was farcical. I was sat at home thinking HOW can people with the power to change this not mix things up!!!?

I can see how the players would lose faith in the coach and the system very quickly when there are very limited ideas and the opposition have worked you out a long time ago.
 
LeParisien said:
From the beginning there were people politicising Conte’s appointment.

“Now we’ve hired a winner - there’s nowhere left to hide”

“What I like most about Conte is he tells it how it is - he won’t take any shit from Levy”.

Anything other than success was framed as a way to hold Levy accountable.

The problem with that of course is that it’s not as easy as hiring a successful manager and then success comes as some kind of natural consequence. There are more successful managers than trophies available.

The evidence (rather than narrative) tells us that Conte did not manage to coach the side effectively and that we never looked like a side where the talents available were being used well. To illustrate that, here are the teams Conte was knocked out by:

Chelsea
Middlesbrough
Nottingham Forest
Sheffield united
AC Milan

I’d say a top coach bringing some fairy dust should have been able to win 4 of those games. I’d expect even Nuno to have won 3 of those games.

The fact is Conte did a poor job. Conte wasn’t the only reason - Levy must also take responsibility… but the quality of the coaching was poor and has been since Poch left.

Fortunately the early signs seem to be very good under Ange. We won’t need to rely on fairy dust because we’ll be able to see the results of the coaching on the pitch.
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A lot of this is eerily similar to the exact same things written about Conte. He had overwhelming support from fans. All the reports from training were positive, fans sung Conte’s name, this forum was awash with positive and the ‘new feeling’ around the club. Everyone went on about how finally someone was coaching us and we had patterns and it was great.

Then we got 4th and there were people arguing he was our best ever coach. So we talk about early signs under Ange being good as if 99.9% didn’t feel exactly the same when Conte was here & these same people stamped down on the few who said otherwise.

Nothing has changed yet. None of these feelings are new. The vague ‘finally we’re actually being coached’ are the same old statements we’ve heard before. It may well be different but my god am I going to wait a bit before getting my hopes up.
 
LeParisien said:
Nice post.

I agree that it’s of course too early to judge Ange.

My principal and somewhat devastating critique of Conte’s coaching is this. When he took over he put in place patterns of play that were unusual and effective. We picked up 5 more points than Woolwich in the 18 games Conte was in charge that season which is excellent given he came mid-season and there was cause for optimism.

The problem is that those SAME patterns of play were being used the following season. Specifically, as late as Milan away, Kane was still dropping into the space to receive the ball from the defence to play a first time flicked ball into the wide forward. To jog your memory, this was being used very early in Conte’s reign and was how we scored Kulu’s first goal for the club against Man City.

People praised Kjaer for his performance against Kane that night but the truth is it’s very easy to spot Conte’s patterns of play. They have shock factor for a few months but at any level where teams can scout, they CANNOT be used for one year +. They need to be constantly refreshed to retain that shock factor.

That’s one example but there are other examples of stale, predictable patterns of play being used. Part of my optimism was that after the first half season, he would renew the playing approach given a full preseason. He did not do that and there are no mitigating factors for that summer.

I know Conte had some mitigation - his last 6 months would have been tough on anyone. But this is also a profound criticism of his coaching methodology that runs deeper than any extenuating circumstances.

Ange’s philosophy is something like the opposite. Instead of intensely drilling specific patterns of play until they’re automatic, he is teaching positional play. It takes a lot longer for players to develop the cues and intelligence to play it well - some players probably aren’t capable - but when it’s in place it’s far harder to stop. It’s a more sustainable strategy.
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I see what you're saying but without Conte being able to stand on the players necks, (due to the aforementioned problems) and the injuries and subsequent loss of form to some who also regressed in mentality to some extent (which was his main point from his rant I think), we weren't able to improve our performances. At one time we had every forward player injured at the same time bar Kane - where's the creativity coming from?

The football wasn't pretty but give Ange the same players Conte had and he won't do any better in the league, I actually think we'd be lower than 4th. Conte played a pragmatic defence first system designed to protect the goal. We were poor defensively and lacking creativity so he played a system to maximize our strengths, mitigate our weaknesses and when he was fit, firing and focussed it worked.

This continued into last season when we had 23 points from the first 10 games before everything went wrong (death, injuries, illness).

Regarding Milan, yes they sussed us out by playing an equally pragmatic game that hinged on key moments, but outside of Kane, Son was woeful as was Kulu and the supporting cast weren't good enough or injured (Richy, Dan, Lucas). And Milan turned over a rampant Napoli next round which suggests they weren't as bad as many suggested.

The improvements planned for the squad now are vital because without them we're going backwards. Managers don't mold players from average to good, their technical ability, speed and intelligence are fixed by the time they are in their late teens - all they try and do is improve confidence, mentality and tactical awareness.
Ultimately we need better players - every player we had in the peak Poch era was better than what we had last season (bar the few who are the same). That's been our biggest problem since 2017 and until we address it, results generally won't change.
 
Shadydan said:
Yeah I don't know what that was meant to prove, he literally gave his approval and at the same time acknowledged that it was a 'club signing' whatever the fuck that meant.
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I was agreeing with you and found the quote.

Conte obviously cleared it, but Spence was not in his immediate plans which is why he used the term 'club signing' (which in this instance I take to mean that he'd considered Spence to be a prospect/investment rather than a starter).
 
Raumdeuterz said:
A lot of this is eerily similar to the exact same things written about Conte. He had overwhelming support from fans. All the reports from training were positive, fans sung Conte’s name, this forum was awash with positive and the ‘new feeling’ around the club. Everyone went on about how finally someone was coaching us and we had patterns and it was great.

Then we got 4th and there were people arguing he was our best ever coach. So we talk about early signs under Ange being good as if 99.9% didn’t feel exactly the same when Conte was here & these same people stamped down on the few who said otherwise.

Nothing has changed yet. None of these feelings are new. The vague ‘finally we’re actually being coached’ are the same old statements we’ve heard before. It may well be different but my god am I going to wait a bit before getting my hopes up.
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Most of that post was about conte. The only bit that wasn’t that light apply to conte is that the early signs were good.

The club has not really earned the fans’ trust so I get it (incidentally, I blame Levy for that). However there are a LOT of differences.

It was apparent that Mourinho had lost his magic. From the first few weeks it was clear nothing interesting was being worked on in training. This remained true several months in. People said “give him a preseason” and then it remained true the following season.

For Conte on day 1 there were reports about his patterns of play. He coaches by drilling players into patterns. Quotes of his saying when he playing midfield he didn’t like not knowing where to pass so he tried to make it clear to players exactly where the ball should go. There are pretty early signs that Conteball (remember that?) was having an effect. I’ll admit I got stars in my eyes and I hoped it would work, especially after a full preseason. The football in the entirety of his second season was a disappointment with NO signs of coaching going.

With Ange, everywhere he has been he has been uncompromising in his willingness to teach and learn and to play football with positional play and attacking principles. The team will grow and play more attractive football - I think we can be fairly certain of that.

We will see positive, front foot football AND evidence of work on the training field translating to games. We haven’t seen that at spurs since 2017/18.

What we can’t be certain about is whether that will translate into results.

Part of that is out of our control. Previous managers didn’t have to compete with 6 other teams at the top. The first time Conte did, he finished far below.

Some of it is in our control and we’ll have to see how the team responds to difficult moments. But there will be a sense of building something which is so important for motivation and so I think he will get the patience he deserves and unlike Conte, there’s a good chance he’s here in 2 years.
 
Matt1882 said:
Really? Cause there's a lot of people who are strangely quick and consistent at jumping to his/ENICs defence. As in, they will literally quote every post to try to argue against anyone who doesn't like them.

I personally found it tiring. I have my opinion and don't need to argue it with wierdos so I put them all on ignore.

But they're closer to "Levybots" than anyone else is to Gooners.
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Tbh it's name calling from both sides.
 
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